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Snakes vs mammalian predators
#76
^ Like what?

Zergthe posted a C19th account from Dr Livingstone wherein it was asserted that lions would kill & tear chimps
literally limb from limb - in mere moments - but then not even eat them.

Well, that smells like bullshit to me, too...
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#77
Quote:Yeah for sure, & it'd have be fairly "unusual" for such nowadays rare, wild-living creatures to be found on a
farm, 'less mayhaps it was a snake-skin/ocelot-fur 'farm', & so they were both handy for a set-up..

You'd think if a bunch of guys went through the trouble of forcing an ocelot and an anaconda fight to the death they might have filmed the entire thing instead of taking a photo after the brawl was over.
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#78
@Mondas

Yeah, when a small cat is killed by a reptilian predator, you always go with the "It's staged or man did it" excuse.
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#79
^ No.

Wildcats are by no means impervious to predation, if caught, held & overpowered by larger reptiles, (even if its rare).

But I def' aint gonna accept overtly 'bogus set-ups' at face value, whereas some are just a wee bit too eager, to do so...
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#80
(06-15-2019, 02:23 PM)Komododo Wrote:
Quote:Yeah for sure, & it'd have be fairly "unusual" for such nowadays rare, wild-living creatures to be found on a
farm, 'less mayhaps it was a snake-skin/ocelot-fur 'farm', & so they were both handy for a set-up..

You'd think if a bunch of guys went through the trouble of forcing an ocelot and an anaconda fight to the death they might have filmed the entire thing instead of taking a photo after the brawl was over.

How do you know they didn't? But then footage might've proved it was a set-up?

Maybe it was done for 'sport', or for a wager, & only afterwards was a pic taken, & later, a tale was 'spun' to fit it?

The more "unusual" an event, the more its veracity must be subjected to a truly searching 'root-cause analysis', no?
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#81
Carpet Pythons are known predators of cats.

Quote:. Over a six-year period, we collected 258 ‘nuisance’ pythons from two cities (Brisbane and Ipswich) in south-eastern Queensland. Most of these snakes were reported by members of the general public, often after the snakes had consumed domestic pets or cage-birds. We provide data on seasonal activity patterns, body sizes, sexual size dimorphism, reproduction and food habits of these snakes. Snakes were active and fed year-round, primarily on domestic and commensal birds and mammals. Dietary composition shifted with body size: one small snake consumed a lizard, intermediate-sized snakes took mostly mice, rats and parrots, and large snakes fed on larger items such as cats, brushtail possums and poultry.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/WR/WR00106
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#82
^ "Domestic pet cats..."!
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#83
(06-16-2019, 02:39 PM)Bloodborne Wrote: Carpet Pythons are known predators of cats.

Quote:. Over a six-year period, we collected 258 ‘nuisance’ pythons from two cities (Brisbane and Ipswich) in south-eastern Queensland. Most of these snakes were reported by members of the general public, often after the snakes had consumed domestic pets or cage-birds. We provide data on seasonal activity patterns, body sizes, sexual size dimorphism, reproduction and food habits of these snakes. Snakes were active and fed year-round, primarily on domestic and commensal birds and mammals. Dietary composition shifted with body size: one small snake consumed a lizard, intermediate-sized snakes took mostly mice, rats and parrots, and large snakes fed on larger items such as cats, brushtail possums and poultry.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/WR/WR00106

Dude domestic & pet cats and dogs are mostly hunted by wild animals and reptiles. There is no surprise if you called carpet python as top predator because in other hands Moniters , wild cats, wild dogs, birds of prey like eagle, owl, hawk, falcon, alligator and caimans from usa and many others are known predator of domestic cats and dogs.
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#84
(06-16-2019, 09:37 PM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(06-16-2019, 02:39 PM)Bloodborne Wrote: Carpet Pythons are known predators of cats.

Quote:. Over a six-year period, we collected 258 ‘nuisance’ pythons from two cities (Brisbane and Ipswich) in south-eastern Queensland. Most of these snakes were reported by members of the general public, often after the snakes had consumed domestic pets or cage-birds. We provide data on seasonal activity patterns, body sizes, sexual size dimorphism, reproduction and food habits of these snakes. Snakes were active and fed year-round, primarily on domestic and commensal birds and mammals. Dietary composition shifted with body size: one small snake consumed a lizard, intermediate-sized snakes took mostly mice, rats and parrots, and large snakes fed on larger items such as cats, brushtail possums and poultry.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/WR/WR00106

Dude domestic & pet cats and dogs are mostly hunted by wild animals and reptiles. There is no surprise if you called carpet python as top predator because in other hands Moniters , wild cats, wild dogs, birds of prey like eagle, owl, hawk, falcon, alligator and caimans from usa and many others are known predator of domestic cats and dogs.
I dont care what you think, I posted it because it was relevant to the thread, and lol I never said carps are a top predator.
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#85
Quote:Rock Python: Predation by carnivores
Leopards are on top list in predation


INCIDENT
On 23 August 2014 an adult female Southern 
Rock Python (Python n atalensis Smith, 1840), 
with a total length of approximately 4 m, was 
observed being eaten by a well-known adult 
male leopard (the ‘Airstrip Male’, Panthera 
pardus) in the Mala Mala Game Reserve, Sabi 
Sands Conservanc y, Mpumulang a Province, 
South Africa. It was observed in flood debris 
and granite boulders on the side of a dry 
stream bed, just above its confluence with the 
Sand River (24° 47’ 19” S, 31° 31’ 44” E; 317 m 
The leopard was born in June 2006, and had been 
observed to kill two other pythons in the few 
years prior to the current incident (pers. comm. 
M. Meyer, 23 October 2014; speci c details are 
not available). In September 2013 the leopard was 
effectively blinded in the left eye (Fig. 3) during a 
 ght with another male. Previously the individual 
fed largely on small antelope such as steenbok, 
duiker and impala, but was known to have even 
killed an adult male kudu (September 2012 pers. 
obs.). Despite its eye injury it is reported to have 
regularly killed its normal mammalian prey. As 
it was observed to eat pythons prior to its injury, 
a.s.l.). The python, including the contained 
developing ova (number known, Fig. 1), was 
subsequently consumed at intervals over 
2-3 days by the leopard. The partially eaten 
python was hidden in thick brush when 
unattended (Fig. 2). 

N AT U R A L   H I S T O R Y 
O T H E R   P Y T H O N   – 
C A R N I V O R E   E N C O U N T E R S

Details of the 16 python-carnivore encounters 
discussed are summarized in Table 1. Of the 16 
encounters analysed 13 (81%) were with leopards, 
of which four incidents including two leopards, 
with three of these reported to include a female 
and her large cub.  The other probably involved 
young siblings fending for themselves. Only one 
encounter involved lion, whilst the remaining two 
encounters involved hyena, one of a group of six, 
the other a solitary adult. All of the encounters 
involved pythons over 1.5 m, with most being 
between 3.0-4.0 m (<3 m: 3; 3-4 m: 9; >4 m: 4). 
In 11 (69%) of the 16 encounters the python was 
killed, with only four of the pythons managing 
to escape after being attacked or after being 
ignored (the fate of one other is unknown). No 
large stomach contents were visible in 12 of the 
pythons and therefore the incident was unlikely 
to have been stimulated by co-option of prey 
milled by the pythons. Of the four remaining 
encounters, two involved pythons that had just 
killed prey but which they had not yet begun 
to swallow. The  rst (Web 10, below) involved 
two lionesses attracted to the distress calls of a 
female impala (Aepyceros melampus) as it was 
being constricted by a python. On approach one 
of the lionesses pulled at the hind quarters of the 
dead impala, whereupon the python uncoiled 
and left its prey and moved quickly into cover. 
It made no aggressive or defensive behaviours 
towards the lion, implying that the python had 
made a ‘cost-bene t’ assessment of the danger 
of defending its prey with respect to the danger 
of being itself attacked. The departing python 
was ignored by the lionesses, which took the 
impala and presumably consumed it (the video 
ends). The second encounter (Web 4) involved 
an adult leopard that approached a python as 
it was uncoiling from a small impala that it had 
just killed. On confrontation with the leopard 
the python backed slowly into bush and struck 
repeatedly at the approaching leopard. It also 
gave a distracting defensive tail display, in which 
the tail was curled into the air highlighting 
the white ventral surface.  The leopard gave 
a number of paw strikes towards the python’s 
head, but unfortunately the recording ends at 
this stage and it is not known if the python was 
killed or allowed to retreat, or if it or its prey, was 
consumed. Two other incidents both included 
the death of the pythons. In a brief series of 
photographs (Web 7), an adult leopard killed a 
python with had a conspicuous stomach content. 
After killing the python it is not stated if the 
leopard subsequently consumed the python, its 
stomach contents (prey unknown), or both. Again 
at Mala Mala reserve, an adult leopard killed 
a 3-4 m python with full stomach and carried 
it in to a tree (Web 5). The stomach content (a 
subadult impala) then fell from the open stomach 
during transfer in the tree, and was seized on 
the ground by an adult hyena. The python was 
subsequently consumed by the leopard.
During four incidents with early recordings 
of the predator’s behaviour towards the python, 
in one (Web 10) the lion predators were only 
interested in the python’s prey and allowed the 
snake to retreat. This it did quickly, with no threat 
or defensive tail display. Three other encounters 
(Web 3, 8 and 12) involved adult leopards, but 
4 N U M B E R   6 3       J A N U A R Y   2 0 1 6
the predation detailed here is therefore unlikely 
to have been an opportunistic switch to less 
mobile prey items following the accident.


N AT U R A L   H I S T O R Y 
none appeared to be predation attempts on the 
python. They all involved the python striking at, 
and giving defensive tail displays towards the 
potential predators. In two of these encounters 
the leopards give paw beats at the pythons, but 
no sustained attack resulted and the pythons in 
both instances were allowed to escape. In the 
last encounter (Web 2), a female leopard sparred 
with and killed a python whilst watched by her 
cub. The leopard positioned herself out of range 
from the python strikes, was not distracted by its 
tail display, and killed it with lateral paw strikes 
to the head. The mother displayed caution in its 
attacks and the incident may involve, in part, 
training of the watching cub. The python was 
subsequently eaten over two days.
One incident (Web 12) involved a non-
predation encounter between a young leopard 
and small python (<2 m). The mother (‘Safari’) 
of the leopard, however, was reported (Sean 
Matthewson, pers. comm., October 2014) to be a 
“proli c python killer’. In 15 months (2004-2005) 
she was observed to kill “ ve breeding-sized rock 
pythons”, none of which had killed or recently 
consumed prey. On one occasion she killed a 
male and female python that were reported to 
be mating, but neither was consumed. All three 
other pythons were killed and eaten, the last 
being a gravid, 4 m female which was stashed 
in a tree and consumed by the mother and her 
cubs. The leopard was subsequently blinded by a 
male leopard while defending her cubs, but this 
was not observed to affect her hunting ability 
or prey selection, which remained primarily 
impala. It was reported that this female leopard 
only started killing and eating pythons after one 
had killed and eaten a litter of her cubs. The 
signi cance of this remains subjective.

D I S C U S S I O N
From the brief summaries presented here, 
it is evident that among the documented 
interactions, leopards were responsible for the 
greatest number of python mortalities, killing 
pythons in 10 of 13 of the encounters. Two of 
these encounters involved leopards known to 
have killed and often eaten pythons previously 
(one of the  ve other documented killings, 
including that of a mating pair of pythons). 
In only two of 18 cases of  leopard-python 
interactions was prey co-option involved, and in 
one case the python was also killed and eaten 
(the fate of the other python was unknown). By 
contrast, recorded interactions (3) with lion and 
hyena usually involved the co-option of prey 
killed by the python, and only once involved 
predation of the snake, and this was in a period 
of environmental stress (drought). Leopards 
have the broadest diet of the larger predators 
with 92 prey species recorded in sub-Saharan 
Africa (Mills & Harvey, 2001). In most studies 
(e.g. Le Roux & Skinner 1998, Stander et al. 
1997, Power 2002, Henschel et al. 2005, Ott et al. 
2007, Swanepoel 2008, Schwarz & Fisher 2008) 
leopards were found to prey predominately 
upon small to medium-sized ungulates, 
preferring species from habitat mosaics, e.g. the 
forest/savanna ecotone, and within a weight 
range of 10–40 kg (Hayward et al. 2006). In more 
open habitats, e.g. Marahoué National Park, 
central Coté d’Ivoire (Bodendorfer et al. 2006), 
smaller prey items (hares, hyrax, large rodents 
and birds) made up a larger proportion of  the 
diet. In all these studies reptiles were rarely 
listed as prey items (Table 2, mean 1.61 % of 830 
food items), and in only one study was a single 
python killed (Stander et al. 1997). 

R E F E R E N C E S
BODENDORFER, T., HOPPE-DOMINIK, B., FISCHER, F. & LINSENMAIR, K. E. 2006. Prey of the leopard 
(Panthera pardus) and the lion (Panthera leo) in the Comoe and Marahoue National Parks, Cote 
d’lvoire, West Africa. Mammalia 70: 231-246.
BROADLEY, D.G. 1983. FitzSimons’  Snakes of  Southern Africa, Delta Books, Johannesburg, 376p.
FACEBOOK GROUP - Predation Records – Reptiles and Amphibians (https://www.facebook.com/
groups/888525291183325/).
FITZSIMONS, F.W. 1930. Pythons and their ways. George C . Harrap, London, 155p.
HAYWARD, M. W. & KERLEY, G. I. H. 2008. Prey preferences and dietary overlap amongst Africa’s 
large predators. Jour nal of  Wildlife Research 38: 93–108.
HAYWARD, M. W., HENSCHEL, P., O’BRIEN, J., HOFMEYR, M., BALME, G.A., & KERLEY, G. I. H. 2006. 
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus). Journal of  Zoolog y (London) 270: 298–313.
HENSCHEL, P., ABERNETHY, K. A. & WHITE, L. J. T. 2005. Leopard food habits in the Lope´ National 
Park, Gabon, Central Africa. African Journal of  Ecology 43: 21-28.
LE ROUX, P.G. & SKINNER, J.D. 1989. A note on the ecolog y of  the leopard (Panthera pardus 
Linnaeus) in the Londolozi Game Reserve, South Africa. African Journal of  Ecology 27: 167–171.
MILLS, M.G.L. & HARVEY, M. 2001. African predators. Cape Town: Struik.
The Southern African Python is a giant snake 
that hunts, overpowers and consumes large 
prey items. It shares African habitats with 
diverse large mammalian carnivores, with 
which it competes for similar prey resources. 
Inter-species con ict is well-documented 
between large African mammalian carnivores 
as they defend or attempt to co-opt large prey 
items that may have involved signi cant time, 
energy and effort to kill. Within these predator-
prey interactions (Owen-Smith & Mills 2008) 
or in African predator trophic niche analyses 
(Hayward et al. 2008), pythons are not usually 
considered. Moreover, large mammalian 
carnivores and pythons have mutually 
interactive trophic relationships, in which either 
may serve as predator or prey. These interactions 
deserve fuller attention. The increasing number 
of predatory interactions captured in the social 
media, although likely biased towards larger 
pythons and more sensational encounters, 
nonetheless present opportunities for analysis 
of these rare events. They allow fuller insight 
into these rare interactions, and greater 
understanding of the role and survival of giant 
snakes in the presence of large carnivores.
a c k n ow l e d g e m e n t s
I thank the numerous game rangers at Mala Mal a for their many interesting discussions and 
observations over the years, particularly Matt Mayer who positioned our vehicle superbly in order 
that the attached images here could be taken. Sean Matthewson (Arathusa property, northern 
Sabi Sands) is also thanked for kindly supplying additional observations on a series of leopard-
python encounters that he witnessed.

N AT U R A L   H I S T O R Y
Notes
6 N U M B E R   6 3       J A N U A R Y   2 0 1 6

OTT, T., KERLEY, G.I.H., & BOSHOFF, A.F. 2007. Preliminary obser vations on the diet of leopards 
(Panthera pardus) from a conservation area and adjacent rangelands in the Baviaanskloof region, 
South Africa. African Zoology 42: 31-37.
OWEN-SMITH, N. & MILLS, M. G. L. 2008. Predator–prey size relationships in an African large-
mammal food web. Journal of  Animal Ecology 77: 173–183.
POWER, J. 2002. Prey selection of leopards Panthera pardus in the Soutpansberg, Limpopo Province, 
and utilization recommendations for this population. Report. University Pretoria, South Africa, pp. 56.
SCHWART, S. & FISCHER, F. 2006. Feeding ecology of leopards (Panthera pardus) in the western 
Soutpansberg, Republic of South Africa, as revealed by scat analysis. Ecotropica 12: 35-42.
STANDER, P.E., HADEN, P.J., KAQECE, II. & GHAU, ll. 1997. The ecology of asociality in Namibian 
leopards. Journal of  Zoology (London) 242: 343–364.
SWANEPOEL, L.H. 2008. Ecology and conser vation of  leopards, Panthera pardus, on selected game 
ranches in the Waterberg region, Limpopo, South Africa, M. Sc. Thesis, University of Pretoria, 157p


https://www.researchgate.net/publication...carnivores
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#86
Mondas Wrote:Well, that smells like bullshit to me, too...
I recall someone saying these accounts are reliable if it’s someone with a reasonable background is out in the field and is a naturalist of some kind because that’s reliable. So I figured I could use that logic and post that account from the legendary Livingstone because that’s reliable. If I really wanted I can go over the realism involved and compare it to modern life but I’m not gonna because this old ass account must be reliable because we don’t have any reason to doubt such an old document especially if someone who is a well known naturalist is behind it eh?

But if you for some reason think I posted it because I believed it...I have no words.
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#87
^ "...no words"?

Why not? If you ask, you might learn something, & not have to rely on how much you've already "...believed it."

Like for instance, is there a fairly close correlationship between a C19th account & most similar observations since?

& while we know that lions appear to only rarely eat any hyena they kill, seemingly finding them somewhat distasteful,
chimps are popular eating - as items of 'bushmeat', so why wouldn't a lion consume one - it has dutifully dismembered?
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