Poll: Who wins?
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Chola
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Song
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1 100.00%
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Chola Empire vs Song Dynasty
#1
An early 12th century Chola Army of 20,000, led by an unnamed, competent general
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSUsMj63SRPrrN03XEkk...8tCfVEEIql]

vs

An early 12th century Song Army of 20,000 led by an unnamed, competent general 
[Image: 92rxy3ixlh421.jpg]

The battle occurs in an open field and the two sides start off 10 miles apart.
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#2
Reserving a vote once the movie I'm watching is over.
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#3
I'll try to do a comparison and tell me to what extent you agree.

Swords: the khanda seems superior to the dao is destructive power and is better at thrusting. Edge: India

Spears: the cresent moon spear is like a halberd, thus superior to the bhala, which is just an ordinary spear. Edge: China

Heavies: as a weapon made to counter cavalry, the zhanmadao is more destructive than the tabar. Edge: China

Bows: the Indian composite bow is likely more destructive and likely has a superior range. Edge: India

Armour: I'm not sure about the brigandine, but lamellar is superior to rivetted mail. Edge: China

Special weapons: war elephant vs firelance. The Song didn't commonly use war elephants in battle but probably read up about them. But they may still be hard to deal with if the Chola can use them effectively and might cause fear among the Chinese soldiers nonetheless. The firelance may surprise and shock the Indians (who, at this point, are still yet to see gunpowder weapons for another 400 years) but have a short range (of around 3 metres) and very long reload time. The elephants are more useful as actual weapons, since they can go trample several soldiers without having to be reloaded or anything. Plus, they have soldiers on top of them shooting arrows and what not. Edge: India

Overall: The Song probably win, though it's close. The biggest factor is that they're superior in the armour department, which will effect every soldier in the field.
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  • Kazanshin
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#4
Quote:I'm not sure about the brigandine

In what specific regard are you wondering? Slashing, piercing (from thrusts or arrows?), blunt trauma?
[Image: 9wf8nho.png]
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#5
Overall. The Indians wore a brigandine called the coat of 10,000 nails and I was wondering how it compares to lamellar overall, in resisting all sorts of things, like thrust, slash, arrows, blunt trauma etc.
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#6
Too lazy to get to everything, but I think brigandine would, if anything, be superior to maille to piercing, however much more superior it may have been. I can't emphasize any further that I'm not saying maille is sh*t armor against piercing or anything (it's still an "easier-said-than-done" thing that requires a lot of force and/or specialized weapons from what I can tell), but if anything, the combination of the small metal plates riveted onto fabric that would have been in front of it would probably leave less room for piercing than the open rings of maille.

See this video from 3:51 to 4:25, where they test Korean dujeonggap, which I believe is basically brigandine (please ignore the part afterwards where they go on about how much better the dujeonggap supposedly was compared to contemporary Chinese and Japanese armor if you can; I don't actually know how true that is and the test is the only thing I'm using to prove my point). The brigandine was able to disperse the impact of an arrow and make the projectile bounce off. Even the fabric in front of the small metal plates held up well.
[Image: 9wf8nho.png]
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  • Lightning
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#7
War elephants were used very rarely in China. The only people to have had a permanent corps of them was the Southern Han during the five dynasties and ten kingdoms period. The corps was successfully used in 948 against the kingdom of Ma Chu. However, they were ultimately no match for northern war tactics. The most common way to counter these animals across the board was to panic them. Which is what happened in 970, when Song Dynasty crossbowmen handily routed the Southern Han war elephants in battle.
Elephants were used more often in south eastern Asian warfare. That seems to be the way Chinese forces usually dealt with them, using projectile weapons like bows, crossbows, or primitive firearms.
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  • Lightning
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#8
I generally know about historical events. But don't know as much about weapons and armour in detail. So I might have gotten things wrong.
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#9
T'was about time I actually posted here after I reserved a vote.

Swords; Dao vs Khanda: I rated the tachi above the khanda in a previous fight, but I've since changed my mind. The khanda may not be capable of stabbing, but is that really necessary when you can bludgeon your enemy to death? I'm rating this even for the dao's thrusting capability and the khanda's sheer power. Edge: Even

Polearms; Crescent-moon Halberd vs Bhala: The Crescent-moon has superior versatility and gets the edge, but don't count the Bhala out completely. It has a single advantage: the ability to be paired with a shield. I still think the halberd has the edge, but it's not one-sided. Edge: Song Dynasty

Heavies; Zhanmadao vs Tabar: I agree once again with Lightning. The Zhanmadao has versatility, as it can be used as an anti-cavalry weapon compared to the Tabar that is only really effective against infantry. (Not to say a giant axe swung with a lot of strength won't kill a horse.) Edge: Song Dynasty

Long range; Indian composite bow vs Nu crossbow: The composite bow has superior rate of fire and can be used effectively from horseback, granting it versatility that counters the sheer power of the Chinese crossbow. Edge: Chola Empire

Armor; Scale/Mail vs Lamellar: Lamellar beats mail and I rate it slightly above scale. Not much to say I haven't already said. Also, happy to see Lightning agrees with me on lamellar vs mail. They're even in elite armor (Mountain Pattern vs Coat of 10000 nails) Edge: Song Dynasty

Special weapons; War Elephant vs Early gunpowder: Against the fire lance, the war elephants dominate for reasons stated by lightning. The thing I'm interested about here is the possible use of early hand grenades. Far easier to use and arguably more powerful than the fire lance, a volley of these things could cause serious levels of destruction. I still rank the elephants above them though, a rampaging elephant with crewmen on top will cause chaos and damage never seen before. Edge: Chola Empire

Overall: This vote really was just a clone of Lightning's, but yeah, I think the Chinese win. It will be a hard fought victory, but the key here is that they know how to deal with elephants. As Fair Whisper mentioned, the Song Dynasty fought elephant-using enemies in 970 and routed them with massive volleys of crossbows. The armors will also be pretty important factors, which will make the Chinese soldiers much less vulnerable to projectile weapons. Deadliest Army: Song Dynasty
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