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Big territorial male leopards; Only territorial male leopards starting 60 kilograms a
#16
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#17
[Image: enLDIsA.jpg]

[Image: ILCyCR5.jpg]

[Image: 1.-Leopard-Identification.jpg]
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#18
the biggest leopards seem to have (proportionally) bigger necks then big jaguars, but obviously the jags have far thicker heads, bodies and limbs so the neck would look comparatively smaller.
 [Image: 75TiAZC.jpg]
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#19
(09-21-2018, 06:16 AM)Forbiddenip Wrote: [Image: enLDIsA.jpg]

[Image: ILCyCR5.jpg]

[Image: 1.-Leopard-Identification.jpg]

First one is a jaguar. Good pictures to compare a jaguar with a leopard though.
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#20
(09-21-2018, 07:19 AM)K9Boy Wrote: the biggest leopards seem to have (proportionally) bigger necks then big jaguars, but obviously the jags have far thicker heads, bodies and limbs so the neck would look  comparatively smaller.

I do not think that there will be a big difference at the same weight.
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#21
The necks of Leopards also look thicker due to the loose hanging skin they develop under their neck (Dewlaps) as they age. A bit like turkeys that also have dewlaps:

[Image: 230px-Anatomy_of_turkey_head.jpg]
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#22
(09-22-2018, 12:21 AM)Taipan Wrote: The necks of Leopards also look thicker due to the loose hanging skin they develop under their neck (Dewlaps) as they age. A bit like turkeys that also have dewlaps:

[Image: 230px-Anatomy_of_turkey_head.jpg]

Here you can see the big neck.

[Image: Dlzx2fT.jpg]
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#23
Anderson dwarfing a female

[Image: 1zgxan7.jpg]
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#24
(09-26-2018, 05:09 AM)Leopard Wrote: Anderson dwarving a female

[Image: 1zgxan7.jpg]
That's crazy if you didn't say it was a male and female id think its a mother and cub
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#25
(09-26-2018, 05:16 AM)Neofelis Wrote:
(09-26-2018, 05:09 AM)Leopard Wrote: Anderson dwarving a female

[Image: 1zgxan7.jpg]
That's crazy if you didn't say it was a male and female id think its a mother and cub

It looks like that on the first sight, yes. This guy is a giant so I wasn't surprised when I saw this photo.
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#26
(09-15-2018, 04:41 AM)Forbiddenip Wrote: Monster (huge neck, because leopards will commonly drag prey into trees)

It’s possible tree caching may contribute to the development of the disproportionately thick necks in leopards but it does not explain the feature completely. Firstly, it is mainly male leopards who have the really thick necks despite the fact they cache kills in trees less frequently than females which don’t really have the extremely thick necks. Secondly, there are lots of places where leopards don't or very rarely tree kills yet the males from these places still have very thick necks with pronounced dewlaps. If it was the need to carry kills into trees that produced the thick necks you would expect the feature to show some correlation to this behaviour. Instead I suspect the disproportionately thick necks of male leopards have probably evolved to help tackle tough prey like suids and also for fighting other males, although tree caching may have played a role in initiating the exaggeration of this feature. The trend I’ve noticed is that the male leopards with the thickest necks tend to be the ones from regions where suids are an important prey source and/or the leopards live at high densities and therefore competition among males is most intense. In particular the thickest necks and biggest dewlaps I’ve seen are from the central Kenyan forests where leopards live at high densities but cache kills infrequently (because there are naturally few lions in these forests).

In Sri Lanka, leopards very rarely carry kills into trees yet the males here still have incredibly muscular necks as this photograph shows.

[Image: 0Qu3YVx.jpg]

In the Congo Basin, leopards are also top predators and have no need to cache kills. Yet this big male from Gabon has an enormously muscular neck.

[Image: t7CnZMG.jpg]


(09-21-2018, 07:19 AM)K9Boy Wrote: the biggest leopards seem to have (proportionally) bigger necks then big jaguars, but obviously the jags have far thicker heads, bodies and limbs so the neck would look  comparatively smaller.

Male leopards do have proportionately thicker necks than male and female jaguars. We have measurements which clearly demonstrate this. Also, jaguars do not have “far thicker” heads or bodies compared to male leopards of similar size.  A male jaguar will have the edge in head and chest girth over a male leopard of equal weight but the difference is not huge (and female jaguars do not have the edge over male leopards in these measurements btw). The difference in these measurements is actually more significant between male leopards and male cougars (ie at equal weights a male leopard will be closer to a male jaguar than to a male cougar in terms of head and chest girth). Again we have recorded measurements which show this.
 
The average neck girth of adult male jaguars from the Pantanal recorded by Tony Almeida was 63.3cm with an average weight of 101kg. The thickest neck he recorded from 28 adult male jaguars from the Pantanal was 68.6cm. For comparison, mature adult male leopards from Phinda GR in South Africa had an average neck girth at 58.4cm (measured immediately behind the head) despite being quite a bit smaller overall with an average weight of 72kg (much shorter body length as well). And according to Peter Turnbull Kemp the neck girth of a leopard can measure up to 71cm in thickness (greater than any neck girth recorded for a jaguar!).
 
Very detailed data on the measurements of jaguars hunted in the Pantanal from the book, “Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia” 1990 by Tony Almeida.
 
[Image: j1LXOjS.jpg]
 
Some additional measurements of individual jaguars from Tony Almeida’s earlier 1976 book. Here the heaviest jaguar from outside of the swamps (an adult male from the Amazon forest) provides a useful comparison for adult male leopards, being much more similar in size.

[Image: KAF57PY.jpg]

 
Measurements of leopards captured for study in Kwa Zulu Natal, South Africa.
 
[Image: 0iLYCRW.jpg]
 
Information on the measurements of leopards from Peter Turn Bull Kemp’s 1967 book, The Leopard.
 
[Image: nSiAwsX.png]
 
Also for comparison, measurements of Canadian cougars captured for study in Alberta.
 
[Image: eiLeDiA.jpg]
 
As I posted previously in much detail – using the above data we get a pretty good idea of how male jaguars, female jaguars, male leopards, and male cougars would compare in body dimensions at a similar body weight of around 65-75kg.
 
Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1)
Length: 134.5cm
Head: 63.5cm
Neck: 55.9
Chest: 92.1cm
 
Adult Female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number)
Length: 133.4cm (n4)
Head: 60.5cm
Neck: 54.5cm
Chest: 91.4cm
 
Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4)
Length: 130cm
Head: 59.1cm
Neck: 58.4cm
Chest: 86.6cm
 
Adult male cougars from Canada (n7)
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 130cm straight)
Head: 52cm
Neck: 43cm
Chest: 81cm

(09-22-2018, 12:21 AM)Taipan Wrote: The necks of Leopards also look thicker due to the loose hanging skin they develop under their neck (Dewlaps) as they age. A bit like turkeys that also have dewlaps:

The dewlap is an interesting feature of the male leopard which is finally getting some attention from scientists. As a sex and age specific trait like the male lion’s mane, it is excellent evidence of the particularly strong sexual selection pressure in the species (ie intense competition among males for mates). The lion and leopard both stand out among the big cats with respect to sexual dimorphism – they also show the greatest sexual dimorphism in skull size and skull morphology.  IMO both the mane and the dewlap have probably evolved due to a similar combination of factors -  protection during fights, intimidating rivals, and also attracting mates.
 
Several male leopard fights have now been recorded and they seem to consistently show how male leopards immediately go for each other’s neck and head. They seem to waste little time boxing and bowing like tigers.

[Image: SKakJfV.png]
 
The photographer, who witnessed the drama from metres away, said: 'Diving through the air the males crashed into each other, both going immediately for the head and neck area. (link)

And though the dewlap may help amplify the already massive necks of male leopards the incredible neck musculature is very evident even when viewed from the dorsal angle where the dewlap has no effect -  as in the photo of the Gabon leopard with the mirror above. 
 
Also see these photos of a big male jaguar and a big male leopard from a very similar angle.
 
This adult male jaguar (labelled ‘Jaguar 1’) was captured for a study in Paraguay. He was weighed at 89kg and 87kg on separate captures (the difference in weight is probably due to stomach content).
 
[Image: LGAO0MC.jpg]
 
This adult male leopard (M3 aka Tyson) was captured for a study in Phinda GR, South Africa. He was weighed at 79kg and 71kg on separate occasions (again difference is probably due to stomach content).
 
[Image: yY8Ak5n.png]
 
The male leopard’s neck clearly appears more massive in proportion to the rest of the body.
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#27
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#28
Great post chui. So the leopard does infact have a bigger neck then a jaguar, but inferior head and chest girth. I would certainly imagine the jaguar has a pretty good advantage in limb thickness aswell.
 [Image: 75TiAZC.jpg]
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#29
(09-27-2018, 02:25 AM)chui Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 04:41 AM)Forbiddenip Wrote: Monster (huge neck, because leopards will commonly drag prey into trees)

It’s possible tree caching may contribute to the development of the disproportionately thick necks in leopards but it does not explain the feature completely. Firstly, it is mainly male leopards who have the really thick necks despite the fact they cache kills in trees less frequently than females which don’t really have the extremely thick necks. Secondly, there are lots of places where leopards don't or very rarely tree kills yet the males from these places still have very thick necks with pronounced dewlaps. If it was the need to carry kills into trees that produced the thick necks you would expect the feature to show some correlation to this behaviour. Instead I suspect the disproportionately thick necks of male leopards have probably evolved to help tackle tough prey like suids and also for fighting other males, although tree caching may have played a role in initiating the exaggeration of this feature. The trend I’ve noticed is that the male leopards with the thickest necks tend to be the ones from regions where suids are an important prey source and/or the leopards live at high densities and therefore competition among males is most intense. In particular the thickest necks and biggest dewlaps I’ve seen are from the central Kenyan forests where leopards live at high densities but cache kills infrequently (because there are naturally few lions in these forests).

In Sri Lanka, leopards very rarely carry kills into trees yet the males here still have incredibly muscular necks as this photograph shows.

[Image: 0Qu3YVx.jpg]

In the Congo Basin, leopards are also top predators and have no need to cache kills. Yet this big male from Gabon has an enormously muscular neck.

[Image: t7CnZMG.jpg]


(09-21-2018, 07:19 AM)K9Boy Wrote: the biggest leopards seem to have (proportionally) bigger necks then big jaguars, but obviously the jags have far thicker heads, bodies and limbs so the neck would look  comparatively smaller.

Male leopards do have proportionately thicker necks than male and female jaguars. We have measurements which clearly demonstrate this. Also, jaguars do not have “far thicker” heads or bodies compared to male leopards of similar size.  A male jaguar will have the edge in head and chest girth over a male leopard of equal weight but the difference is not huge (and female jaguars do not have the edge over male leopards in these measurements btw). The difference in these measurements is actually more significant between male leopards and male cougars (ie at equal weights a male leopard will be closer to a male jaguar than to a male cougar in terms of head and chest girth). Again we have recorded measurements which show this.
 
The average neck girth of adult male jaguars from the Pantanal recorded by Tony Almeida was 63.3cm with an average weight of 101kg. The thickest neck he recorded from 28 adult male jaguars from the Pantanal was 68.6cm. For comparison, mature adult male leopards from Phinda GR in South Africa had an average neck girth at 58.4cm (measured immediately behind the head) despite being quite a bit smaller overall with an average weight of 72kg (much shorter body length as well). And according to Peter Turnbull Kemp the neck girth of a leopard can measure up to 71cm in thickness (greater than any neck girth recorded for a jaguar!).
 
Very detailed data on the measurements of jaguars hunted in the Pantanal from the book, “Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia” 1990 by Tony Almeida.
 
[Image: j1LXOjS.jpg]
 
Some additional measurements of individual jaguars from Tony Almeida’s earlier 1976 book. Here the heaviest jaguar from outside of the swamps (an adult male from the Amazon forest) provides a useful comparison for adult male leopards, being much more similar in size.

[Image: KAF57PY.jpg]

 
Measurements of leopards captured for study in Kwa Zulu Natal, South Africa.
 
[Image: 0iLYCRW.jpg]
 
Information on the measurements of leopards from Peter Turn Bull Kemp’s 1967 book, The Leopard.
 
[Image: nSiAwsX.png]
 
Also for comparison, measurements of Canadian cougars captured for study in Alberta.
 
[Image: eiLeDiA.jpg]
 
As I posted previously in much detail – using the above data we get a pretty good idea of how male jaguars, female jaguars, male leopards, and male cougars would compare in body dimensions at a similar body weight of around 65-75kg.
 
Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1)
Length: 134.5cm
Head: 63.5cm
Neck: 55.9
Chest: 92.1cm
 
Adult Female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number)
Length: 133.4cm (n4)
Head: 60.5cm
Neck: 54.5cm
Chest: 91.4cm
 
Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4)
Length: 130cm
Head: 59.1cm
Neck: 58.4cm
Chest: 86.6cm
 
Adult male cougars from Canada (n7)
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 130cm straight)
Head: 52cm
Neck: 43cm
Chest: 81cm

(09-22-2018, 12:21 AM)Taipan Wrote: The necks of Leopards also look thicker due to the loose hanging skin they develop under their neck (Dewlaps) as they age. A bit like turkeys that also have dewlaps:

The dewlap is an interesting feature of the male leopard which is finally getting some attention from scientists. As a sex and age specific trait like the male lion’s mane, it is excellent evidence of the particularly strong sexual selection pressure in the species (ie intense competition among males for mates). The lion and leopard both stand out among the big cats with respect to sexual dimorphism – they also show the greatest sexual dimorphism in skull size and skull morphology.  IMO both the mane and the dewlap have probably evolved due to a similar combination of factors -  protection during fights, intimidating rivals, and also attracting mates.
 
Several male leopard fights have now been recorded and they seem to consistently show how male leopards immediately go for each other’s neck and head. They seem to waste little time boxing and bowing like tigers.

[Image: SKakJfV.png]
 
The photographer, who witnessed the drama from metres away, said: 'Diving through the air the males crashed into each other, both going immediately for the head and neck area. (link)

And though the dewlap may help amplify the already massive necks of male leopards the incredible neck musculature is very evident even when viewed from the dorsal angle where the dewlap has no effect -  as in the photo of the Gabon leopard with the mirror above. 
 
Also see these photos of a big male jaguar and a big male leopard from a very similar angle.
 
This adult male jaguar (labelled ‘Jaguar 1’) was captured for a study in Paraguay. He was weighed at 89kg and 87kg on separate captures (the difference in weight is probably due to stomach content).
 
[Image: LGAO0MC.jpg]
 
This adult male leopard (M3 aka Tyson) was captured for a study in Phinda GR, South Africa. He was weighed at 79kg and 71kg on separate occasions (again difference is probably due to stomach content).
 
[Image: yY8Ak5n.png]
 
The male leopard’s neck clearly appears more massive in proportion to the rest of the body.

Could this explain why lions tend to maul a male instead of going for clean bite to the neck? I've yet to find evidence where a lion killed a leopard like they do with hyena's or cheetah's.

It could be becouse of its defensive posture, making it difficult to actually for the kill but still.
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#30
@Chui
 
Did the leopard's dewlap effect their neck measurements? I'm wondering if it did play a part in it. Hopefully you can answer my question.
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