Poll: Who wins?
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Siberian Tiger
18.18%
8 18.18%
Polar Bear
81.82%
36 81.82%
Total 44 vote(s) 100%
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Siberian Tiger v Polar Bear
"own imagination" - really?

Everything I stated was factual.

For the record, I actually prefer big cats to bears - so if I were being biased I would side with the big cats.

You seriously underestimate bears. A 1000 + lbs bear is simply to big and to strong for the avg lion/tiger - the big cats can win in a face to face confrontation - I'm not saying they can't - its just that the odds are stacked against them.
Reply
"Everything... stated was factual." Yeah, right. Just like "+50% = double". L.O.L..

Then you spoil it by adding, "...around those weights." when in fact the range for U.maritimus weights, is huge in itself.

& back to your favourite "1000lb" bear, one of them carrying ~40% fat is closer to a ~600lb bear, under that.
Carrying that extra weight won't help it in combat against a full-sized Siberian tiger, no matter what you imagine.
Reply
Quite "frankly" Mondas, there is no point in further debating with you.

You are "pig - headed" and stubborn - at the end of the day, you will always side with your favorite.

I like lions and tigers way more than bears, but I prefer the real facts.

Yeah - there is obviously a huge range of weights for polar bears, but how do you not know that the average weight for a healthy male is close to a 1000 lbs?

As far as fat is concerned - the fat storage does not cancel out the muscle mass %-age - and as the mathematical figures show, on avg, the polar bear has a greater %-age of muscle.

Not to mention that the bear has better stamina - simply because its muscles are directly infused to the brain - which means that the muscles don't fatigue as quickly.

Of course, the fight always depends on the individual animal, and a fully grown male Siberian tiger could indeed win - but the bear has the advantage.

But... you are free to believe whatever you want... that is your right...
Reply
"...simply because its muscles are directly infused to the brain..." Whaaa?

But the tiger can "swim for 29km", if that level of stamina is not sufficient to kill the bear, it needs to call in Leo. L.O.L..

As it happens, I don't "believe" anything, as such. I prefer to accept the best explanation given the evidence base.

I do find it interesting that the only bear which predominantly feeds on large mammals, does so where big cats
are absent, & elsewhere in the world, where real big cats are apex predators, bears were either gone, or relegated
to a much more circumspect lifestyle, of foraging/scavenging rather than attempting to directly compete for meat.
Reply
Hey, but you guys ought to realise, a bear at "max weight" is carrying ~40% of that in body fat, its no good for combat.

Here is really large male
[Image: tundra-buggy-height-comparison-chart.png]

[Image: Tundra_Buggy_2004-11-13.jpg]
Notice that "The tires on each Tundra Buggy vehicle are 5.5 feet (1.7 meters) high"




If we speaking about the range :

From
A body composition model to estimate mammalian energy stores and metabolic
rates from body mass and body length, with application to polar bears
Péter K. Molnár1,2,*, Tin Klanjscek3, Andrew E. Derocher2, Martyn E. Obbard4 and Mark A. Lewis1,2
"Model validation Fourth, metabolic rates were estimated
for fasting adult males and compared with expected metabolic rate

fulfilled this requirement for all bears regardless of sex, age or
population (Fig.4): total body mass of subadult and adult females
ranged from 114% to 366% of their structural mass, with a similar
range for cubs-of-the-year (117–339%), yearlings (120–317%) and
subadult and adult males (115–321%). These ranges correspond to
bears with body fat constituting 7.7–45.6% of their total body mass
(adult females), 6.9–33.4% (cubs-of-the-year), 10.3–42.4%
(yearlings) and 5.7–30.2% (adult males), respectively (as estimated
from Eqn1 and Eqn13A). The variability in observed body masses
and estimated body fat corresponds to documented variability in
these state variables (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995; Pond et al., 1992;
Watts and Hansen, 1987), largely due to seasonal changes in food
availability. Upper estimates of relative body fat content
corresponded closely to previously observed maximal values for
both adult females [49% (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995)] iand adult
males [32% (Atkinson et al., 1996a)], and accordingly all bears were
lighter than 4 times their structural mass, which we considered an
approximate upper bound to total body mass.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/15/2313

Mondas wrote

"100kg or something" as ~ 40% of a "full fat" bear, would be one of immature size only, so try again."

Well

The anatomy, chemical composition, and metabolism of adipose tissue in wild polar bears (Ursus maritimus)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._maritimus
Table 2
[Image: 2ykhohj.jpg]

Identity, approximate age, total body mass, and fatness (all dissectible adipose tissue as percen­ tage of total body mass) of all polar bears studied

8 year old male polar bear body
Body mass = 407 kg ,body fat = 17,8%

Compared to

"More specific body composition techniques exist and can further validate BCS scales in exotic animals,
however these techniques are challenging or expensive to apply. Beyond the data reported above, body
composition has not been assessed in lions, however it has been estimated from total body water from 14
wild lions in 2 studies (Clarke & Berry, 1992; Green et al., 1984). Average total body water was 64% and
did not differ between males and females or immature vs. mature lions (P>0.05). This corresponds to an
average fat mass of 13% bodyweight (range 3 to 21%)"

Source
http://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/10...s-big-cats
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Reply
"At parity, a lion/tiger takes this.

If the polar bear is a little bit larger, the lion/tiger would still win."





It is simply due to the fact that "At parity, a lion/tiger is rather fully mature or superb sized 200 _ 260 kg up to 300 kg ? And the bear is rather weak specimens( old,starved etc.)
Reply
But the tiger can "swim for 29km", if that level of stamina is not sufficient to kill the bear, it needs to call in Leo. L.O.L..

"Researchers report a radio-collared female in the Beaufort Sea swam continuously for 687 km (426 miles) over 9 days and then swam and walked an additional 1,800 km (1,118 mi); she lost 22% of her body mass and her yearling cub.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Warsaw's post:
  • onlyfaizy786
Reply
(04-14-2019, 12:24 AM)Warsaw Wrote: But the tiger can "swim for 29km", if that level of stamina is not sufficient to kill the bear, it needs to call in Leo. L.O.L..

"
Quote:Researchers report a radio-collared female in the Beaufort Sea swam continuously for 687 km (426 miles) over 9 days and then swam and walked an additional 1,800 km (1,118 mi); she lost 22% of her body mass and her yearling cub.
@sk your claimed has been acknowledged.
[Image: t70ok8.jpg]
Reply
(04-13-2019, 08:29 AM)Mondas Wrote: "...simply because its muscles are directly infused to the brain..."   Whaaa?

But the tiger can "swim for 29km", if that level of stamina is not sufficient to kill the bear, it needs to call in Leo. L.O.L..

As it happens, I don't "believe" anything, as such. I prefer to accept the best explanation given the evidence base.

I do find it interesting that the only bear which predominantly feeds on large mammals, does so where big cats
are absent, & elsewhere in the world, where real big cats are apex predators, bears were either gone, or relegated
to a much more circumspect lifestyle, of foraging/scavenging rather than attempting to directly compete for meat.

Well... the hump on the bear's shoulders I believe is directly infused to the brain - I'll cite the source when I find it.

As I have mentioned before, feline stamina is horribly underrated, and the tiger does indeed have the stamina to win this fight - its just that the bear has a slight advantage in this department, nothing else,

You are right - the reason for that is because bears are not nearly as good hunters as big cats. Big cats have the total package - size, strength, agility, mobility, reflexes, explosive power, etc.

For example, tigers in Kaziranga National park have started killing adult rhinos - I doubt even the biggest and baddest polar bear would be able to do this.

But, in a face to face confrontation - assuming the bear is considerably larger, it has the slight advantage.

(04-13-2019, 07:02 PM)Warsaw Wrote: Hey, but you guys ought to realise, a bear at "max weight" is carrying ~40% of that in body fat, its no good for combat.

Here is really large male
[Image: tundra-buggy-height-comparison-chart.png]

[Image: Tundra_Buggy_2004-11-13.jpg]
Notice that "The tires on each Tundra Buggy vehicle are 5.5 feet (1.7 meters) high"




If we speaking about the range :

From
A body composition model to estimate mammalian energy stores and metabolic
rates from body mass and body length, with application to polar bears
Péter K. Molnár1,2,*, Tin Klanjscek3, Andrew E. Derocher2, Martyn E. Obbard4 and Mark A. Lewis1,2
"Model validation Fourth, metabolic rates were estimated
for fasting adult males and compared with expected metabolic rate

fulfilled this requirement for all bears regardless of sex, age or
population (Fig.4): total body mass of subadult and adult females
ranged from 114% to 366% of their structural mass, with a similar
range for cubs-of-the-year (117–339%), yearlings (120–317%) and
subadult and adult males (115–321%). These ranges correspond to
bears with body fat constituting 7.7–45.6% of their total body mass
(adult females), 6.9–33.4% (cubs-of-the-year), 10.3–42.4%
(yearlings) and 5.7–30.2% (adult males), respectively (as estimated
from Eqn1 and Eqn13A). The variability in observed body masses
and estimated body fat corresponds to documented variability in
these state variables (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995; Pond et al., 1992;
Watts and Hansen, 1987), largely due to seasonal changes in food
availability. Upper estimates of relative body fat content
corresponded closely to previously observed maximal values for
both adult females [49% (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995)] iand adult
males [32% (Atkinson et al., 1996a)], and accordingly all bears were
lighter than 4 times their structural mass, which we considered an
approximate upper bound to total body mass.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/15/2313

Mondas wrote

"100kg or something" as ~ 40% of a "full fat" bear, would be one of immature size only, so try again."

Well

The anatomy, chemical composition, and metabolism of adipose tissue in wild polar bears (Ursus maritimus)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._maritimus
Table 2
[Image: 2ykhohj.jpg]

Identity, approximate age, total body mass, and fatness (all dissectible adipose tissue as percen­ tage of total body mass) of all polar bears studied

8 year old male polar bear body
Body mass = 407 kg ,body fat = 17,8%

Compared to

"More specific body composition techniques exist and can further validate BCS scales in exotic animals,
however these techniques are challenging or expensive to apply. Beyond the data reported above, body
composition has not been assessed in lions, however it has been estimated from total body water from 14
wild lions in 2 studies (Clarke & Berry, 1992; Green et al., 1984). Average total body water was 64% and
did not differ between males and females or immature vs. mature lions (P>0.05). This corresponds to an
average fat mass of 13% bodyweight (range 3 to 21%)"

Source
http://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/10...s-big-cats

Yeah... there is one major issue with your source.

All the bears which have low body fat - also have low body weight.

Besides that one 407 kg male, all the bears were below 250 kg.

And even that 407 kg male is still around 60 kg lighter than the average polar bear.

Mondas is not wrong - fully grown mature male bears do have ~40% body fat.

(04-13-2019, 09:59 PM)Warsaw Wrote: "At parity, a lion/tiger takes this.

If the polar bear is a little bit larger, the lion/tiger would still win."





It is simply due to the fact that "At parity, a lion/tiger is rather fully mature or superb sized  200 _ 260 kg up to 300 kg ? And the bear is rather weak specimens( old,starved etc.)

Ah.. no.

There are mature, healthy male bears that weigh ~200 kg - roughly the same as a lion or tiger.

Mature male inland grizzlies weigh 190 kg - the same as African male lions.

The only way the bear will win this fight is if it is conisderably larger. At all things equal, big cats have almost all the advantages.

@Warsaw,

Thanks for showing the source of the female polar bear swimming.

I already addressed that the bear has the advantage in stamina.

However, you should know that big cat stamina is horribly underrated. Tigers have been known to swim long distances and have hour long fights with prey animals. There was also an instance where a lioness fought a buffalo cow for hours in the presence of other pride members.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Sher Khan's post:
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Reply
Besides that one 407 kg male, all the bears were below 250 kg.


There is nothing unusual that ,2,3,or 4,year old "bears were below 250 kg."


Besides that one 407 kg male, all the bears were below 250 kg.


And even that 407 kg male is still around 60 kg lighter than the average polar bear.



Not really .This relatively young (only 8 y.o) still can be around 470 kg in his prime >12 y.o

Anyway here is (from Kaplanov study)
Male amur tiger with total body weigth = 160 kg and body fat =30 kg
Almost 19 %

Please note that 160 kg male is still around 30 kg lighter than the average amur tiger
http://www.sixote-alin.ru/books/kaplanov/tigr.html
Look at the table 2
[Image: 14vsk8h.jpg]
Самец, 16.II.1940 г. р. Великая Кема
Сало, кг 30


There are mature, healthy male bears that weigh ~200 kg - roughly the same as a lion or tiger.

Mature , healthy male polar bears that weigh ~200 kg -?


Mature male inland grizzlies weigh 190 kg - the same as African male lions.

The only way the bear will win this fight is if it is conisderably larger. At all things equal, big cats have almost all the advantages.

I trought that we speaking about polar bear.Anyway
Idea that "The only way the bear will win this fight is if it is conisderably larger. At all things equal, big cats have almost all the advantages."
was discussed many times.
For example here you go.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/carnivor...-s910.html

"Tigers have been known to swim long distances and have hour long fights with prey animals. There was also an instance where a lioness fought a buffalo cow for hours in the presence of other pride members."

Citation needed!
Reply
@Warsaw,

My point was that the reason the bears had such low body fat is because they had low body weight. Once the bears reach their full size, they are going to have ~40% body fat.

Yeah, but as the bear gets heavier, it will gain more body fat - that is my point.

As for the Amur tiger study... that was a sample of one. Likewise, I can show you a CAPTIVE Amur tiger that only had 10%
body fat...

Oh, okay, I see. But still, there are healthy polar bears the same size as lions and tigers...

Also, can you please cite that link again? It was not working for me...

As for tigers swimming, check this out: https://www.howitworksdaily.com/why-can-tigers-swim/

Lioness has 8 hour fight with buffalo bull: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/w...amera.html
Reply
"My point was that the reason the bears had such low body fat is because they had low body weight. "

OK ,look at the table.



You see that 8 year old ,407 kg male polar bear withl
with body fat = 17,8%
is much heavier than 238 kg mali with body fat =21%
So your asdumption that "
the bears had such low body fat is because they had low body weight. " is far from the truth.


"Once the bears reach their full size, they are going to have ~40% body fat."

No.Beras ,at least ursus arctos and ursus maritimus "reach their full size" around + -12 year old.

Full size =skeletal frame and lean body mass.



"These ranges correspond to
bears with body fat constituting 7.7–45.6% of their total body mass
(adult females), 6.9–33.4% (cubs-of-the-year), 10.3–42.4%
(yearlings) and 5.7–30.2% (adult males), respectively (as estimated
from Eqn1 and Eqn13A). The variability in observed body masses
and estimated body fat corresponds to documented variability in
these state variables (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995; Pond et al., 1992;
Watts and Hansen, 1987), largely due to seasonal changes in food
availability. Upper estimates of relative body fat content
corresponded closely to previously observed maximal values for
both adult females [49% (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995)] iand adult
males [32% (Atkinson et al., 1996a)], and accordingly all bears were
lighter than 4 times their structural mass, which we considered an
approximate upper bound to total body mass."


Now for polar bears we have "The variability in observed body masses
and estimated body fat corresponds to documented variability in
these state variables (Atkinson and Ramsay, 1995; Pond et al., 1992;
Watts and Hansen, 1987), largely due to seasonal changes in food
availability. "


"Yeah, but as the bear gets heavier, it will gain more body fat - that is my point."

There are some exceptions of course

Generally speaking "will gain more body fat",skeletan frame size and muscle mass .


"As for the Amur tiger study... that was a sample of one. Likewise, I can show you a CAPTIVE Amur tiger that only had 10%
body fat"
Well
http://oi65.tinypic.com/102l3x2.jpg


Two critical nutritional periods were identified for the barren-ground grizzly bears
examined in our study. The early summer season, before the return of the Bathurst
caribou herd from their calving grounds, corresponded to the poorest level of nutritional
condition for barren-ground grizzly bears. Usable grizzly bear fat reserves were as low as
1-2% but improved upon the return of mixed post-calving herds of caribou to the study
area. The late summer season, when grizzly bears entered a state of hyperphagia, was

also considered critical. Bears need to accumulate large fat reserves during hyperphagia
to survive winter hibernation.


The heaviest barren-ground
grizzly bear we have
captured so far was a male
bear weighing 261.5 kg in
late May and just over 2 m in
length

So far we've learned that adult male bears and lone
females follow a seasonal cycle in body fat reserves.
This cycle is closely linked to the bears' diet and
habitat selection.
Percent body fat depends on the type of
food consumed, and where that food
source is available to bears is reflected
in their habitat selection. Upon leaving
their winter dens, the bears maintain
body condition by exploiting the
migratory Bathurst caribou herd as their
primary food source. However, in early
summer, as the caribou leave the study
area to their northern calving grounds,
bears switch their diet to the new shoots
of grasses and sedges. These plants
have low nutritional value for bears and
with the added stress of reproduction
and long search times for food, bears
lose the remainder of their fat reserves
accumulated the year before.
THE SEASONAL CYCLE OF FAT RESERVES THE SEASONAL CYCLE OF FAT RESERVES
Early summer finds the bear in their poorest condition. Some bears got so lean that their
body fat reserves actually dropped to just 1% to 2% useable body fat. As the caribou returned
from their calving grounds in mid-summer, the bears' diet again switched to a primarily
carnivorous one and body condition improved. As summer progressed, the bears became
hyperphagic as the northern berry crop ripened. There was an excellent berry crop this year
which were likely the primary foods responsible for re-establishing body fat reserves of bears.
In the fall, 3-4 weeks before denning, bears were fatter than at any other season, and bears
again switched their diet to caribou, even though most caribou had travelled further south to
the treeline for the winter. A seasonal pattern in food habits is similar to bear populations
elsewhere but the amount of caribou in the diet has been surprising.


"Oh, okay, I see. But still, there are healthy polar bears the same size as lions and tigers..."

Healthy mature male polar bear at the same body mass ?

As for tigers swimming, check this out: https://www.howitworksdaily.com/why-can-tigers-swim/
Another ,more detailed source please.


Lioness has 8 hour fight with buffalo bull: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/w...amera.html

Well

assengers driving through Kruger National Park, in South Africa, watched as the determined lioness tried to bring down the buffalo bull on her own.

The pair were so engrossed in their eight hour-long battle that they crossed just feet from cars treating motorists to a grandstand view of the gladiatorial conflict.

Famous for doing most of the hunting the lioness was even watched from the sidelines by a large male who did nothing to help her.

The scene was captured on film by tourist Muhammed Patel.

The 24-year-old business owner said: "It was just like watching a wildlife documentary unfold before your very eyes, except this time we were in it too.

"They were just feet from the cars, but neither of them seemed to notice the people, they were just determined to fight each other.

"I have never seen a lioness so determined to kill this bull even though she was all alone, and the cheeky pride male was just watching from the grass."

According to witnesses, the buffalo had been targeted by a group of lionesses but had fought all of them off bar one.

The drama unfolded on the Orpen Road which is the main route through the world famous park.

Mr Patel, who was at the park on holiday with his family, said: "I have seen leopard and cheetah hunting but not a lion, and never anything this close up.

"I felt sorry for the buffalo as it was injured by the morning attack but was excited to see how nature works at its best.

"There were three attacks that occurred while we there, it was like an attack would happen and then they would get tired and it seemed to us mutually agree to have a break before another attack took place.

African buffalo bulls can weigh up to a tonne and have been known to kill lions even when attacked by large groups.


So,you think that fight between bear and lion/ tiger may be similar to this?

"There were three attacks that occurred while we there, it was like an attack would happen and then they would get tired and it seemed to us mutually agree to have a break before another attack took place."
C`mon.
Reply
^ Yamaguchi et al, in their paper 'What is a Tiger' accorded some weight to that "swim 29km" claim, by including it.
Reply
^ Yamaguchi et al, in their paper 'What is a Tiger' accorded some weight to that "swim 29km" claim, by including it.

Yes .I see.From Yamaguchi et al
(N.B. tigers have been known to swim up to 29 km across rivers and 12 km across the sea [26] ). The Amur tiger population would, therefore, by default have to be managed separately"



26. Kitchener AC . Tiger distribution, phenotypic variation and conservation issues . In: Seidensticker J , Christie S , Jackson P , eds. Riding the Tiger: Tiger Conservation in Human-Dominated Landscapes . Cambridge : Cambridge University Press ; 1999 : 19 – 39 .

http://oi68.tinypic.com/22lrab.jpg

I'm so disappointed that you "29 km"

come from a source like this

"Gargas, D. P. (1948). How far can a tiger swim?/ournol of the Bombay Natural History"


https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibl...4#/summary

And here is my source
Consequences of long-distance swimming and travel over deep-water pack ice for a female polar bear during a year of extreme sea ice retreat
Polar bears (Ursus maritimus) prefer to live on Arctic sea ice but may swim between ice floes or between sea ice and land. Although anecdotal observations suggest that polar bears are capable of swimming long distances, no data have been available to describe in detail long distance swimming events or the physiological and reproductive consequences of such behavior. Between an initial capture in late August and a recapture in late October 2008, a radio-collared adult female polar bear in the Beaufort Sea made a continuous swim of 687km over 9days and then intermittently swam and walked on the sea ice surface an additional 1,800km. Measures of movement rate, hourly activity, and subcutaneous and external temperature revealed distinct profiles of swimming and walking. Between captures, this polar bear lost 22% of her body mass and her yearling cub. The extraordinary long distance swimming ability of polar bears, which we confirm here, may help them cope with reduced Arctic sea ice. Our observation, however, indicates that long distance swimming in Arctic waters, and travel over deep water pack ice, may result in high energetic costs and compromise reproductive fitness.

First (23 August 2008) and second (26 October 2008) capture locations (circles with white crosses) of adult female polar bear 20741 in northern Alaska. Also provided are place names indicated in the text ankkd the complete travel route of 20741
https://carnivora.net/showthread.php?tid=1438&page=3
Reply
^ Why "disappointed"?

Tiger is a cat, a human has swum 225km across the Adriatic, & humans have walked to the South Pole, but so what?

U.maritimus is the 'sea bear', after all.
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