Poll: Who wins?
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Pantanal Jaguar
66.67%
10 66.67%
Mugger (Marsh) Crocodile
33.33%
5 33.33%
Total 15 vote(s) 100%
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Pantanal Jaguar v Mugger (Marsh) Crocodile
#16
On land I favour a jaguar, but if it tries to run down a mugger from bank into water like caimans, mugger will turn the game around, they are not as skittish as caimans and likely face the jaguar head on once it enters water.
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#17
(01-01-2019, 08:52 AM)Black Ice Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 07:40 AM)Lightning Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 06:26 AM)Black Ice Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:38 AM)ApexBoy Wrote:
Black Ice Wrote:Using female alligators failing to thwart black bears coming at their nests is a poot argument here as female alligators are nothing compared to their male counterparts in the slightest.

Crocodilians are easy to  outmaneuver on land.

Ya that's why Jaguars go for caimans half their size.

Florida panthers, jaguars and tigers have all killed crocodilians larger than themselves on land.

Anyway, as for this match, a bear isn't as nimble as a cat, so I don't know who would win on land.

In the water, the alligator is the clear winner.
We seem to have a clear misconception among members here on what constitutes as a crocodillian being larger than these big cats on land. There also seems to be a habitual curve of people taking accounts that dictate the small minority as something that happens on a common level which is not the case in the slightest. For example,
Quote:Although rare fatal attacks on cougars or even jaguars have been reported, very little evidence exists of such predation, and cats are likely to avoid ponds with black caimans, suggesting that adults of this species are higher in the food chain than even the jaguar.

Also that Caiman was not 15 feet, but 12 feet as seen below.
Quote:The jaguar (Panthera onca), being a known predator of all other caiman species, is the only primary predatory threat to black caimans, with several records of predation on young black caimans and eggs and a single reported instance of an adult male black caiman, measuring 3.8 m (12 ft), having fallen prey to a large jaguar. 
A "large" Jaguar managed to kill a Caiman that is considered a "small adult male" in size. This as you can clearly see in itself is not anywhere close to a common occurence as even at these sizes Black Caiman are generally dominant over Jaguar.
Quote:A relatively small adult male of a total length of 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) weighed 98 kg (216 lb) while an adult male considered fairly large at a length of 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in) weighed approximately 350 kg (770 lb).

Notice how much of a weight difference between a 12ft caiman and one near 14ft is. This applies nearly to most if not all crocodillians.

The crocodiles big cats kill on land are not nearly as impressive as people think they are. It's very rare a big cat manages to kill a crocodillian worth its salt. This whole "big cats dominate on land" needs to cease.


Okay, so I wanted to respond to the above post (which is from the American alligator vs American black bear thread) but I don't want to turn that thread into big cat vs crocodile, so let's bring this here (where it's far more relevant).

Quote:We seem to have a clear misconception among members here on what constitutes as a crocodillian being larger than these big cats on land. 

A crocodile that's heavier than a big cat is bigger than the big cat... How's there any misconception in this?

Quote:There also seems to be a habitual curve of people taking accounts that dictate the small minority as something that happens on a common level which is not the case in the slightest.

As far as I'm aware, big cats killed crocodiles larger than themselves (maybe just slightly larger but still larger) on land more than once whereas a crocodile never killed a big cat on land.

Quote:Although rare fatal attacks on cougars or even jaguars have been reported, very little evidence exists of such predation, and cats are likely to avoid ponds with black caimans, suggesting that adults of this species are higher in the food chain than even the jaguar.

In the water. Btw, I'd support a crocodilian over a big cat on land if the crocodilian is much bigger but not if it's only slightly bigger.

Quote:a single reported instance of an adult male black caiman, measuring 3.8 m (12 ft), having fallen prey to a large jaguar. 

I see.

Quote:A relatively small adult male of a total length of 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) weighed 98 kg (216 lb) while an adult male considered fairly large at a length of 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in) weighed approximately 350 kg (770 lb).

So a 3.4m caiman is already as big as an average Pantanal jaguar, meaning the 3.8m caiman (that got killed by the jaguar) was likely larger than the jaguar. Doesn't that just confirm my statement about jaguars having killed crocodilians larger than themselves on land (which is what you wrote this long post in response to)?

Quote:A "large" Jaguar managed to kill a Caiman that is considered a "small adult male" in size. 

Yet that caiman was likely still likely larger than the jaguar...

Quote:The crocodiles big cats kill on land are not nearly as impressive as people think they are. It's very rare a big cat manages to kill a crocodillian worth its salt. This whole "big cats dominate on land" needs to cease.

I never said that the crocodiles killed by big cats were impressive representatives of their respective species. All I said was that big cats have killed crocodiles larger than themselves on land. And this is true.
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#18
LOL just realized I already commented on this thread with the above. I'm out of it today.

(01-04-2019, 06:34 AM)Lightning Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 08:52 AM)Black Ice Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 07:40 AM)Lightning Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 06:26 AM)Black Ice Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:38 AM)ApexBoy Wrote: Crocodilians are easy to  outmaneuver on land.

Ya that's why Jaguars go for caimans half their size.

Florida panthers, jaguars and tigers have all killed crocodilians larger than themselves on land.

Anyway, as for this match, a bear isn't as nimble as a cat, so I don't know who would win on land.

In the water, the alligator is the clear winner.
We seem to have a clear misconception among members here on what constitutes as a crocodillian being larger than these big cats on land. There also seems to be a habitual curve of people taking accounts that dictate the small minority as something that happens on a common level which is not the case in the slightest. For example,
Quote:Although rare fatal attacks on cougars or even jaguars have been reported, very little evidence exists of such predation, and cats are likely to avoid ponds with black caimans, suggesting that adults of this species are higher in the food chain than even the jaguar.

Also that Caiman was not 15 feet, but 12 feet as seen below.
Quote:The jaguar (Panthera onca), being a known predator of all other caiman species, is the only primary predatory threat to black caimans, with several records of predation on young black caimans and eggs and a single reported instance of an adult male black caiman, measuring 3.8 m (12 ft), having fallen prey to a large jaguar. 
A "large" Jaguar managed to kill a Caiman that is considered a "small adult male" in size. This as you can clearly see in itself is not anywhere close to a common occurence as even at these sizes Black Caiman are generally dominant over Jaguar.
Quote:A relatively small adult male of a total length of 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) weighed 98 kg (216 lb) while an adult male considered fairly large at a length of 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in) weighed approximately 350 kg (770 lb).

Notice how much of a weight difference between a 12ft caiman and one near 14ft is. This applies nearly to most if not all crocodillians.

The crocodiles big cats kill on land are not nearly as impressive as people think they are. It's very rare a big cat manages to kill a crocodillian worth its salt. This whole "big cats dominate on land" needs to cease.


Okay, so I wanted to respond to the above post (which is from the American alligator vs American black bear thread) but I don't want to turn that thread into big cat vs crocodile, so let's bring this here (where it's far more relevant).

Quote:We seem to have a clear misconception among members here on what constitutes as a crocodillian being larger than these big cats on land. 

A crocodile that's heavier than a big cat is bigger than the big cat... How's there any misconception in this?

Quote:There also seems to be a habitual curve of people taking accounts that dictate the small minority as something that happens on a common level which is not the case in the slightest.

As far as I'm aware, big cats killed crocodiles larger than themselves (maybe just slightly larger but still larger) on land more than once whereas a crocodile never killed a big cat on land.

Quote:Although rare fatal attacks on cougars or even jaguars have been reported, very little evidence exists of such predation, and cats are likely to avoid ponds with black caimans, suggesting that adults of this species are higher in the food chain than even the jaguar.

In the water. Btw, I'd support a crocodilian over a big cat on land if the crocodilian is much bigger but not if it's only slightly bigger.

Quote:a single reported instance of an adult male black caiman, measuring 3.8 m (12 ft), having fallen prey to a large jaguar. 

I see.

Quote:A relatively small adult male of a total length of 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) weighed 98 kg (216 lb) while an adult male considered fairly large at a length of 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in) weighed approximately 350 kg (770 lb).

So a 3.4m caiman is already as big as an average Pantanal jaguar, meaning the 3.8m caiman (that got killed by the jaguar) was likely larger than the jaguar. Doesn't that just confirm my statement about jaguars having killed crocodilians larger than themselves on land (which is what you wrote this long post in response to)?

Quote:A "large" Jaguar managed to kill a Caiman that is considered a "small adult male" in size. 

Yet that caiman was likely still likely larger than the jaguar...

Quote:The crocodiles big cats kill on land are not nearly as impressive as people think they are. It's very rare a big cat manages to kill a crocodillian worth its salt. This whole "big cats dominate on land" needs to cease.

I never said that the crocodiles killed by big cats were impressive representatives of their respective species. All I said was that big cats have killed crocodiles larger than themselves on land. And this is true.

90% of what you said is incorrect. The vast majority of crocodillian killed big cats were not larger than said cats. In fact 80% of the time they were actually smaller. Like ftr a large jaguar would be heavier by a fair bit than a "small male" black caiman. Probably closer to 300lbs.

Unless you're looking to cheese your way from being wrong by going "there's 1, maybe accounts" then sure I guess you're right? There's also rare accounts of Crocodiles having lion claws in their stomachs regularly and whatnot but you don't see me using that as an arguement here.

Wait actually I didn't comment on this thread before.

I'm really losing my marbles right now. Can't even remember if I posted here or not prior to just now.
There are many types of people in this world; None of them are as smart as they think they are.
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#19
The caiman would had been comparable to this alligator's size since its lenght was stated to be 3.8 meters.
[Image: PXPKqUd.jpg]

There is also this quote I got from a article some time ago about a black caiman.

Quote:Rosenblatt’s helped the team to snag their largest caiman on record, a 12.5-footer that weighed 450 pounds.

Nowhere in the account it stated that the jaguar was a large specimen, the person who edited the wikipedia page just assumed the jaguar was relatively large for its size.

however the caiman would most likely had been lethargic at the moment which would explain why it didn't fought back.

Quote:From Depredation by Jaguars on Caimans and Importance of Reptiles in the Diet of Jaguars.

In June 1999, we found a male M. niger 3.8 m TL that apparently had recently been killed by a jaguar. Based on the paw marks around the site, the caiman had been attacked by the jaguar while on a thick mat of floating vegetation in a canal located along the margin of Lago Mamiraua.
[Image: XDkm2CJ.jpg]
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#20
Before I get into this. I have to point out one very blatant issue I'm sure you actually saw but may have chosen to ignore it.

"Rosenblatt’s helped the team to snag their largest caiman on record, a 12.5-footer that weighed 450 pounds."

Are you implying with this that the above is the norm? You know, that's how much Nile Crocodiles weigh on average in certain populations. The averagr 12 footer does not weigh 450lbs. That was either a fat caiman or an excessively bulky one.

There's quite literally a reason Jaguar do not attack Black Caiman with the same frequency they attack Yacare Caiman.

Also to further back what I mean when I say the crocodillians Big Cats usually kill are right before the stage they start gaining considerable bulk at.

Quote:Male crocodiles are about 30 to 50 cm (12 to 20 in) longer on average at sexual maturity and grow more so than females after becoming sexually mature, especially expanding in bulk after exceeding 4 m (13 ft 1 in) in length.
A below 14 foot crocodile (or Black Caiman) is not (usually) a representative of what a fully bulked up male is. It's equivalent to me taking a Jaguar at sexual maturity (not phyiscal maturity) and trying to undercut its potential.

The source is from a research paper called The Nile Crocodile btw.

For those who think a 3.9m Black Caiman is a good sized adult.
Quote:Sub-adult male specimens of around 2.5–3.4 m (8 ft 2 in–11 ft 2 in) will weigh roughly 95–100 kg (209–220 lb), around the same size as a mature female, [color=#222222]but will quickly increase in bulk and weight. 
Quote:A relatively small adult male of a total length of 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) weighed 98 kg (216 lb)while an adult male considered fairly large at a length of 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in) weighed approximately 350 kg (770 lb).
Legit a 3.9m Black Caiman would weigh SIGNIFICANTLY less than a 4.2m one. Their weight after 4m increases by the cube compared to their length.

Edit: Let it be known I'm not arguing which would usually win on land. I'm aware of a crocodiles mobility issues. What I'm pointing at is the blatant misconceptions that crocodiles are 500lbs+ beasts at only 10 feet long and whatnot.
There are many types of people in this world; None of them are as smart as they think they are.
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#21
Quote:Are you implying with this that the above is the norm? You know, that's how much Nile Crocodiles weigh on average in certain populations. The averagr 12 footer does not weigh 450lbs. That was either a fat caiman or an excessively bulky one.

Just checked wikipedia for the size of nile crocodiles and american alligator in which it stated this:

Quote:According to Cott (1961), the average length and weight of Nile crocodiles from Uganda and Zambia in breeding maturity was 3.16 m (10 ft 4 in) and 137.5 kg (303 lb).[6] Per Graham (1968), the average length and weight of a large sample of adult crocodiles from Lake Turkana(formerly known as Lake Rudolf), Kenya was 3.66 m (12 ft 0 in) and body mass of 201.6 kg (444 lb).

Quote:Large adult American alligators tend to be relatively robust and bulky compared to other similarly length crocodilians, for example captive males measuring 3 to 4 m (9 ft 10 in to 13 ft 1 in) were found to weigh 200 to 350 kg (440 to 770 lb) 

I guess it depends on the species of crocodilian on how early it gets fully developed.

Quote:There's quite literally a reason Jaguar do not attack Black Caiman with the same frequency they attack Yacare Caiman.

No one ever implied that yacare caiman are the same as black caiman.
[Image: XDkm2CJ.jpg]
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#22
There tends to be a lot of misconceptions, regarding reptlilian size and ecology, with a steady, and sadly never ending emphasis, on this forum.



Quote:There's quite literally a reason Jaguar do not attack Black Caiman with the same frequency they attack Yacare Caiman.
Quote:No one ever implied that yacare caiman are the same as black caiman.

This may be due to size, but it also perhaps, is because black caiman do not rest near the shorelines, as frequently as yacare caiman do.
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#23
Jaguar. If he can handle a black caiman, he can even more easily handle a mugger.
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