Poll: Who wins?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Siberian Tiger
55.00%
22 55.00%
Eurasian Brown Bear
45.00%
18 45.00%
Total 40 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Siberian Tiger v Eurasian Brown Bear
But your knowledge does not come from 50 books about Tigers. If you dedicated as much time to analyze both sides equally, both from reliable and unreliable sources, you would likely find totally different results.

In the R.F.E., tigers do not prey on mature male brown bears. There remains not one verified confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a mature male brown bear. But mature male tigers have been killed by brown bears.

And what year would that be?
2011

A Bear is not fast enough to take a big herbivore not head on. Whiile Tigers do prefer ambush, taking on a puny Deer is something they could easily do face to face.

You have not seen the two different videos of a grizzly taking on a caribou face-to-face? Just as they took on bulls. If you wear a face-mask on the back of your head, it will not stop a grizzly.

Or it could be another 2000 Bears killed by Lions, without counting in those killed by Tigers. Since  you can just assume 2000 Lions were killed and lost every single fight, I can do virce verca.  

According to author  Michel Pastoureau there are no records of the lion ever winning against a bear. 
 [Image: o63I2x0.jpg]
Reply
Quote: In the R.F.E., tigers do not prey on mature male brown bears. There remains not one verified confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a mature male brown bear. But mature male tigers have been killed by brown bears.
And even now, I have seen accounts posted before that disagrees with you. If you are going to use unreliable sources, you may just as well do it for the Tiger too.


Quote:2011
A historian from 2011? Much better than what I expected, but it remains a historian and not a researcher with an education on animals.

Quote:You have not seen the two different videos of a grizzly taking on a caribou face-to-face? Just as they took on bulls. If you wear a face-mask on the back of your head, it will not stop a grizzly.
I have, that is why I said it was not impressive. Bears are stamina users and are bad at sneaking up on stuff, they do like Wolves and start running when they see the prey, cats can't do that. If the Tiger believe that it has been seen, then it is meaningless to chase it, due to it not being able to chase the Deer for the next hour.
It is called saving energy.

Quote:According to author  Michel Pastoureau there are no records of the lion ever winning against a bear.
According to 1 author. There wouldn't be any Lion and Tiger vs Bear debates if people could not cherry pick unreliable sources of Bears losing in those old arena fights.
Reply
I'm going to stop here. Pointless. I know that there several land-based animals that can kill a grizzly in a face-off. Neither lion nor tiger happens to be one of them. I'm talking about winning in better than 10% of face-offs. But I also know that it grinds on the nerves of any big cat fan-boy to admit. I also know that there are lots of things that a big cat can do better than a grizzly. They are, in my opinion, the greatest land-based ( mammal ) athletes in the animal kingdom. I added mammal because I know some idiot would be typing in flea or some nonsense. 
[Image: o3orbid.png]
Reply
Quote:I'm going to stop here. Pointless. I know that there several land-based animals that can kill a grizzly in a face-off. Neither lion nor tiger happens to be one of them.
That is your unreliable opinion, not a fact.

Quote:But I also know that it grinds on the nerves of any big cat fan-boy to admit.
It also grinds on every Bear fan-boi to admit.

As for the pic, if the Bear is too fat, it becomes a worse fighter. Likewise, that Bear, if the comparison is true, seem to larger than an Eurasian Bear as well.
Reply
I have, that is why I said it was not impressive. Bears are stamina users and are bad at sneaking up on stuff, they do like Wolves and start running when they see the prey, cats can't do that

Rather hunting strategy may vary depending on the type of habitat .
For example

Muskox Bull Killed by a Barren-Ground Grizzly Bear,
Thelon Game Sanctuary, N . W. T.
ANNE GUNN’ and FRANK L. MILLER2
ABSTRACT. The carcass of an adult muskox bull (Ovibos moscharus) killed by a barren-ground grizzly bear (Ursus arctos richardsoni) was
found in the Thelon Game Sanctuary. It is suggested that adult muskox bulls along the Thelon River system have become prey for at least some grizzly bears that have learned to ambush them in dense vegetation.
Key words: muskoxen (Ovibos moscharus); grizzly bear (Ursus arctos richardsoni); predation
Reply
(02-18-2019, 02:10 AM)brobear Wrote: Or it could be another 2000 Bears killed by Lions, without counting in those killed by Tigers. Since  you can just assume 2000 Lions were killed and lost every single fight, I can do virce verca.  

According to author  Michel Pastoureau there are no records of the lion ever winning against a bear. 
 [Image: o63I2x0.jpg]

Still no footnotes/references from Pastoureau's book to cite, eh then, brobear?

You do realise he's an Art-historian, right? Not a Classicist, or Zoological historian.

& "...practically invincible." as Pastoureau airily opinines ( but crucially, does not footnote),
is in fact, practically worthless, as meaningful evidence of your assertions of bear superiority,
let alone your baseless claim of Pastoureau's supposedly suggesting:
"...there are no records of the lion ever winning against the bear." 

Actually, if you do want to check those old, awful sources of animal baiting, just compare the record
of contests between big panthera types against 'game' dogs, versus just how bears'd coped with dogs in the pit.

The savage way dogs were brutally destroyed, (or turned tail & ran), when in the few instances they were set on
real angry/violent big cats, (& which was much to the dismay of dog-fanciers), is in marked contrast to the
centuries of sordid cruelty of bear-baiting by dogs, where the bear was routinely worn down & wrecked.

As for posting images of a winterised full-fat, fluffed-fur bear, & attempting to imply it shows muscular power,
well, do you really want an image of a hairless bear put up?

One which will be a more realistic match to the close-furred lion?

No, of course you don't. You've previously delected just such an image from your D-o-t-B forum.
& that's why you want to leave this discussion, 'cause you can't do that here, aint that right, brobear?
Reply
why you want to leave this discussion bla bla bla... No.
I leave because in every known confrontation between a mature male brown bear and a tiger, the big cat comes out second best. I leave because there has never been one single confirmed case of a tiger ever killing a mature male brown bear. I leave because a mature male brown bear is simply too powerful a foe for any big cat yet the big cat fan-boys will never man-up and admit the truth. Arguing with radical biased juvenile fan-boys is a big waste of my time.
Now... continue with your pointless inconsequential fantasies. ( I know you will ).
Reply
Brobear, I support the brown bear over the tiger just like you do but I guess there comes a time to agree to disagree with those who think the opposite.
Reply
(02-22-2019, 01:44 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: Brobear, I support the brown bear over the tiger just like you do but I guess there comes a time to agree to disagree with those who think the opposite.

Well said..different researchers, different results, different articles, different scientific theory. Everyone has own opinion and different point of view that doesn't mean they are pointless.
Reply
(02-21-2019, 08:32 PM)brobear Wrote: why you want to leave this discussion bla bla bla... No.
I leave because in every known confrontation between a mature male brown bear and a tiger, the big cat comes out second best. I leave because there has never been one single confirmed case of a tiger ever killing a mature male brown bear. I leave because a mature male brown bear is simply too powerful a foe for any big cat yet the big cat fan-boys will never man-up and admit the truth. Arguing with radical biased juvenile fan-boys is a big waste of my time.
Now... continue with your pointless inconsequential fantasies. ( I know you will ).

There is also such a thing as looking at the tons of undeniable evidence and accepting the obvious. The big cat fan-bays are lying even to themselves. They cannot bring themselves to man-up to the truth. It is possible ( though dangerous ) for a lion or a tiger to kill a mature male grizzly by ambush. In a face-off, its a safe bet if you wager the farm and your bank account on the bear.
Reply
(02-24-2019, 06:04 PM)brobear Wrote:
(02-21-2019, 08:32 PM)brobear Wrote: why you want to leave this discussion bla bla bla... No.
I leave because in every known confrontation between a mature male brown bear and a tiger, the big cat comes out second best. I leave because there has never been one single confirmed case of a tiger ever killing a mature male brown bear. I leave because a mature male brown bear is simply too powerful a foe for any big cat yet the big cat fan-boys will never man-up and admit the truth. Arguing with radical biased juvenile fan-boys is a big waste of my time.
Now... continue with your pointless inconsequential fantasies. ( I know you will ).

There is also such a thing as looking at the tons of undeniable evidence and accepting the obvious. The big cat fan-bays are lying even to themselves. They cannot bring themselves to man-up to the truth. It is possible ( though dangerous ) for a lion or a tiger to kill a mature male grizzly by ambush. In a face-off, its a safe bet if you wager the farm and your bank account on the bear.

Dont you think you are bears fan bys?
Reply
No. I am not a biased fan-boy. At equal head-and-body length, which the Amur tiger and Amur brown bear pretty much are, the bear is greater in girth in limbs, torso, and neck. He is the stronger of the two.
[Image: 91e04c8d5e644493a918216e56b4301e.png]
Reply
Hello everyone, I am pleased to be apart of this community!

Lightning Wrote:The bear is slightly more robust and stronger but the tiger has larger jaws, more powerful bite and significantly more athletic, faster, more agile and explosive. The bear is slow and cumbersome in comparison to the tiger.

Hi Lightning, I enjoyed reading your post but I think that the bear is significantly stronger than the tiger lb for lb. I say this because bears are exceptionally powerful, with "stout limbs capable of producing large forces over a much greater range of motion than those of dogs or even cats”. It is also evident that “cats are more like bears in their range of possible movements, but lack strength” (source: https://books.google.com.au/books?dq=Cat...4Q6AEIKjAA).

Cats are specialised carnivores built for ambush tactics and agility, while bears are built for strength and mobility. I don't think you've acknowledged that in your post.

I'm also dubious about the tiger's agility or manoeuvrability being an important thing to consider regarding this fight. I suppose the tiger could evade the bear initially, but I see this fight turning into a grappling match in which agility won't really matter; the stronger animal and superior grappler would prevail in that kind of engagement.

Lightning Wrote:The bear would stand on its hind legs during the fight and then it's at risk of being knocked to the ground by the tiger's explosive attack. After that, the tiger can bite the bear's throat and kill it.

To say that the bear would be knocked to the ground doesn't seem reasonable. As stated above, bears have great strength and their limbs have a greater range of motion (more flexible; good for grappling) than those of cats. With that in mind, it's difficult to see the bear being overpowered and knocked down in that manner.

Adding to that, bears are plantigrade animals while tigers are digitigrade. Being plantigrade allows for "more swinging force when fighting" which results in "stronger blows to their opponents". Researchers believe that the two-legged plantigrade stance "grew out of a need to stand and fight" (source: https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=190923).

I don't believe that standing on two legs would result in any kind of disadvantage. If anything, it would be helpful as it facilitates the use of the bear's front limbs.
[-] The following 3 users Like rorqual's post:
  • Lightning, OldGreenVulture, Verdugo
Reply
Hi Roqual, nice to meat you.

Regarding strength, I haven't seen robustness fiqures for brown bears but I have for tigers and other bear species.

From another thread:

""
Sun Bear: 9.6%
Sloth Bear: 11.67%
Black Bear: 9.7%
Giant Panda 9.7%

Lion: 8.92%;

Tiger: 8.57%;"

Assuming the brown bear's is 9.7%, it would mean it's 13% higher than the tiger, which doesn't seem like a huge amount.

Also, pantherines have a greater % of muscle than bears and other members say that that's muscle is a contributing factor to strength. I myself don't know whether it's true or not and I don't really understand the link between muscle and strength in detail but some of the members who said so were credible. But others disagreed, so I don't know who to believe.

Regarding agility, I don't believe agility would be a major factor but I think speed, explosiveness and athleticism will. Being faster and more explosive means than the tiger can grapple faster and hit faster (more hits in a shorter time).

I don't believe that the tiger can overpower a bear but I do believe that it can knock/push/pull an equal sized bear to the ground. The reason I believe this is because, when pantherines fight, the knock/push/pull each other to the ground very often (bears not so much) and it's just difficult to see how the bear, even if strong and more stable on hindlegs than other quadrupedal animals, could maintain its balance when an equal size tiger, who is significantly faster and more explosive than other bears that the bear is accustomed to fighting, attacks the bear whilst its standing on hindlegs.

Here is a fight between two lions, notice how fast and explosive they are and how many times they knock/push/pull each other to the ground:
https://youtu.be/oNGo2r-PN28

Bears seem considerably slower and less explosive whilst fighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6r81UOzIHg

It's hard for me to see how a bear standing on hindlegs could maintain its balance when an equal sized, very fast/explosive tiger attacks it. Of course, it's also possible for the bear to knock the tiger to the ground but tigers are more experienced fighting on their backs than bears are.
[-] The following 2 users Like Lightning's post:
  • JaySean, Mondas
Reply
^ Lightning, did you mean 1.3%, & your "13%" figure was a typo? Well, anyhow...

Mere bone dimensions, or so-called "robusticity" measures, ought not to be taken as a singular 'strength' parameter.

Brown bears by their lifestyle must cope with carrying a very significant increase in body mass (~40%) for over-wintering,
thus they develop a needfully more rigid skeletal frame, but this does not imply ^ bone-density, nor articular advantage.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)