Poll: Who wins?
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Harpy Eagle
70.59%
12 70.59%
Philippine Eagle
29.41%
5 29.41%
Total 17 vote(s) 100%
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Harpy Eagle v Philippine Eagle
#76
(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: Philippine eagle is heavier on average
some sources/references would be nice



(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: longer taller, the longer legs/tarsi could spell a big difference longer reached means away from bodily harm when tackling prey or opponent,

Forrest Eagles don't seem to employ the same methods or have similar
limitations that other raptors have when it come to "combat". They are more
readily able to kill-as there morphology dictates;and this plays into there fundamentally
 differing psychology. Crowned Eagles don't fight like Golden Eagles. There is a suspected
probability of them having a high mortality rate, in respect to there territorial confrontations
with members of there own species,



(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: strength is up for grabs since there's NO scientific data or proof to validate which of the two is more powerful looks can be deceiving
It's not actually "up for grabs".
Form follows functions. The thickness of both the toes & the tarsus of the Harpy
is what denotes it brute gripping power. The only raptor with similar dimensions
& proportions of the Harpies talon/tarsus measurements is the African Crowned Eagle.



(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: and its not enough to conclude which is more powerful between the two, Philippine eagle can lift far heavier prey than Harpy eagle almost 4 times of its body weight;
No raptor can lift more than 1/3 of it's body weight from a grounded position.



(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: while Harpy can only lift a third of its body weight equivalent.
You're certainly over embellishing while simultaneously twisting widely
known facts of raptors around. The PE absolutely cannot lift something heavier than if it isn't already air borne.  




(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: Harpy eagle had no records of taking of large venomous snakes which are dangerous prey for a large eagle and are abundant to its home-range.
Has absolutely no bearing on this topic.

Redtailed hawks are accomplished killers of snakes, yet would lose more
often than not to a Northern Goshawk-which isn't at all keen on taking on sizeable
serpents as prey.




(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: meaning PE takes on more dangerous prey than Harpy eagle and its a factor
No...it isn't a factor in this debate, as my above example clearly displays.


(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: to which ot the two is more experienced hunter to tackle large prey that sometimes fights back remember 97% of Harpy's prey takings are Sloth.
And PE mostly take flying Lemurs....which again makes your points moot
and irrelevant.

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(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: Take a closer look! Those legs aren't that small coz they are more than an inch longer than Harpy's legs.

(03-15-2019, 10:44 AM)wallacetic Wrote: there's NO scientific data or proof to validate which of the two is more powerful looks can be deceiving

then, you just contradicted yourself...

Fourteen  vertebrate prey  items  were recorded  with  flying lemur  (Cynocephalus  volans) as the most frequent  prey  species  delivered  to  the  nest  (54.2  %  of  identifiable  prey).

The rest were 3 species of birds, at least 3 species of snakes and 2 species of lizards. The top five prey items brought to the nest according to live  weight  were the  young Philippine  deer (Cervus  mariannus) (13-14 kg),  the long-tailed macaque  (Macaca  fascicularis) (3-4 kg), palm  civet  (3-4 kg),  Rufous hornbill  (Buceros  hydrocorax) (1.8-2.3  kg)  and  the  Flying  Lemur  (1-2  kg).  In
25  contrast to the old generic name as the “monkey-eating” eagle, the species feeds on monkeys (i.e. long-tailed macaques) infrequently.


Philippine eagles have a broad  prey  base and appear to be opportunistic feeders  (Kennedy,  1985),  which  is  similar  to  at  least  two  equally  huge  tropical eagles in Africa and in central and south  America.

Mitani and colleagues (2001) studied 2 pairs of the Crowned hawk-eagles Stephanoaetus coronatus (weight = 3.6-5.0  kg)  in  Kibale  National  Park,  Uganda  and  they  identified  16  vertebrate prey species from prey remains, with primates being the primary diet, and bats, rodents,  hornbills  and  unidentified  non-primate  mammals  and  birds  as  minor prey. The live weight of its prey items range between 1.0 to 14 kg. Rettig (1978) studied nesting Harpy  eagles Harpya hapija (7.5-9 kg)  in  Guyana and found the same prey size variety. Harpy eagles fed on 15 vertebrate taxa and took animals with  live  weights  between  2.7  to  9.0  kg.  All  of  the  prey  items  though  were mammals. All these giant eagles share a preference for arboreal mammals (i.e. >60 % of prey): flying lemurs  for  the Philippine eagle, primates for the Crowned hawk-eagles and sloths and primates for Harpy eagles. All also exhibit the same ability to prey on animals much heavier than themselves.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...HILIPPINES
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#77
To end all this arguments lets just put this way to settle the issue if which Eagle is the most powerful. Tell me which eagle has the most dangerous prey takings on record not the largest or heaviest prey coz' deers, dulkiers, buck, goats are simply no match to any Large Eagles. What the Harpy eagle, Golden eagles, Crowned eagles and all the other eagles prey takings can also be easily preyed on by the Philippine Eagle. Do you think a Harpy eagle, Crowned eagle, Golden eagle or any other eagle specie would be able to survive a fight to a Large Reticulated python or a venomous cobra? maybe they would but the chance is very slim as compared to Philippine eagle even a large male macaque would be dangerous prey they could weigh as much as 10-12  kg There was a female crowned eagle who attacked a group of Macaques (Crab-eating macaque) on a tree in swamp area in Thailand and was almost got ripped into pieces lucky she was throwned out in the muddy pit during the scaffle and sustain no serious injury but a bleeding torn foot. Harpy eagle never dared to prey on snakes which are abundant to its home-range.

ATB
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#78
(03-19-2019, 11:40 AM)wallacetic Wrote: To end all this arguments lets just put this way to settle the issue if which Eagle is the most powerful. Tell me which eagle has the most dangerous prey takings on record not the largest or heaviest prey coz' deers, dulkiers, buck, goats are simply no match to any Large Eagles. What the Harpy eagle, Golden eagles, Crowned eagles and all the other eagles prey takings can also be easily preyed on by the Philippine Eagle. Do you think a Harpy eagle, Crowned eagle, Golden eagle or any other eagle specie would be able to survive a fight to a Large Reticulated python or a venomous cobra? maybe they would but the chance is very slim as compared to Philippine eagle even a large male macaque would be dangerous prey they could weigh ad much as 10-12  kg There was a female crowned eagle who attacked a group of Macaques in Thailand and was almost got ripped into pieces lucky she was throwned out in the muddy pit during the scaffle and sustain no serious injury but a bleeding torn foot. Harpy eagle never dared to prey on snakes which are abundant to its home-range.

ATB



sources to back up your claims?

Besides the point that I've already debunked your claims about snakes as prey
being relevant in this match.
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#79
Large snakes are Regularly prey taken by the PE..

Mindanao possesses flying lemurs (reputedly the main prey: see below), flying squirrels, monkeys, snakes and lizards; Samar and Leyte are similar except for lacking the flying squirrels; and Luzon lacks both flying lemurs and flying squirrels, but possesses the monkeys (an eagle was seen taking an adult female monkey in Cagayan, carrying it in one foot: R. Crombie in litt. 1998) and reptiles, and in addition giant cloud-rats Phloeomys pallidus that weigh 2–2.5 kg (over twice the weight of flying lemurs) (L. R. Heaney in litt. 1997). Gonzales (1971) had a local report of a bird being captured alive after falling exhausted in combat with a large python.
Food: monkeys The generic name of the Philippine Eagle, Pithecophaga, which led to its original English name “monkey-eating”, was the result of the natives of Samar reporting that it “preys chiefly on the Green Monkeys”, and indeed the man who bestowed this name, Ogilvie Grant (1897), considered that “the worn tail and broken ends of the quills of both wings and tail no doubt bear witness to many a savage struggle amongst the branches”. In Whitehead’s (1899a) view, “monkeys... are the only animals sufficiently abundant in these forests to support such a large bird”. However, Gonzales (1968) found that monkeys formed only a small proportion of the diet of a breeding pair, and considered the name “lemur- eating eagle” to characterise the species better; indeed, as part of his laudable attempts to generate greater pride in the species by obtaining a name change, Kennedy (1981b,c, 1983, 1985) made much of the fact that he too found very few monkeys being brought to nests under observation (“the eagle rarely preys on monkeys”). Nevertheless, in the very first stomach known to have been examined, that of the male from Camp Keithley, September 1906, there was “a monkey, not yet digested”, which had been dismembered and eaten, starting with the paws, then the next joints, and so on, “hair and all” (Clemens 1907

Source: http://birdbase.hokkaido-ies.go.jp/r...n/pithjeff.pdf
(ECOLOGY pp14-16)

Sanje Mangabey Cercocebus sanjei Kills an African Crowned Eagle Stephanoaetus coronatus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Abstract)

We present the first ever reported observations of a hunting African crowned eagle Stephanoaetus coronatus being killed by a primate, in the Udzungwa Mountains of south-central Tanzania. An adult female eagle launched an attack on a young Sanje mangabey Cercocebus sanjei who was feeding in a tree, but was intercepted and bitten by an adult mangabey who was feeding nearby. The adult mangabey and the eagle then fell together 25 m to the forest floor below. The eagle subsequently died from her injuries, while the mangabey escaped and is thought to have survived. This rare event is briefly discussed in the context of previous accounts of primate-crowned eagle interactions.

Link: http://content.karger.com/produktedb...R2006077005359

The female Crowned eagle in Thailand who attacked the macaques was named "Emmy"  owned by a falconer and the story was posted on International falconry forum which I cannot access at the moment.
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#80
^thats not indicative of large snakes being regularly taken as prey plus it was unsuccessful. The reason why harpy eagle don’t “regularly predate large snakes” due to increased competition so it adapted to hunt in areas with less competition and killing and carrying prey while still mid air unlike most other large birds of prey.
Compose a different argument because you won’t win with the same refuted argument being used.
The night is dark and full of terrors
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#81
(03-19-2019, 01:35 PM)HoundMaster Wrote: ^thats not indicative of large snakes being regularly taken as prey plus it was unsuccessful. The reason why harpy eagle don’t “regularly predate large snakes” due to increased competition so it adapted to hunt in areas with less competition and killing and carrying prey while still mid air unlike most other large birds of prey.
Compose a different argument because you won’t win with the same refuted argument being used.
You can see it in the eagles documented  prey takings and snakes are regular menu items.
Unsuccessful.?
Its because it was interrupted when the villagers caught it unable to flew away exhausted due to a long gruelling fight with the giant snake. The point here was the eagle survived the ordeal, of which any of the large eagles would not last a minute. It bit more than it could chew..and Im pretty sure this is not the first nor the lasts in more tens and thousands years of their existence. 
Reticulated python are very common in the Philippines and from time to time you can find them even in populated urban areas.

These Eagles are oppurtunistic feeders you cannot be choosy in the wild! and you are saying that Harpy eagle is a choosy feeders even if it see a snake?, It cannot handle a large venomous snake that is why it doesn't prey on it. These aerial predators aren't stupid they learned from experience either they will discover a new source of prey or be killed by trying to prey on it the first time. 

The  Philippine eagle has a very big advantage to other large eagles, Philippine eagle is the ONLY large eagle that can handle snakes large or venemous beause it has a blood lineage with the small snake eagle with no other competitor to deal with  had evolved into a giant forest eagle just like the Haast's eagle they have the islands they live in all to themselves.
The Top predator of the environment they live in.
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#82
^Read berkut vs pe thread I answered your “response” over there same answer almost here I am tired of repeating basic environmental and animal behavior to you. And it was unsuccessful because if it wasn’t the villagers probably wouldn’t have caught it.
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#83
Because you cant accept the Facts! Simple as that and cant admit that that the Philippjne eagle is more experienced hunter than the Harpy eagle.. you don't  even get on how the eagle was caught ... The eagle had an encounter with the large retics due to a long fight the eagle got tired and the villagers caught it  (CAPTURED ALIVE) meaning it survived the gruelling fight that other large eagle wouldn't last nor would survive.
Note: We are comparing large eagles with almost the same size, weight, habits and environment. The Harpy and Philippine eagle

Sometimes its just hard to admit the facts when you simply dont want accept the truth.
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#84
Please stop this argument that you keep on building which doesn’t work. I constantly refute your proposals and you ignore it to repeat again the same misused data and attack me personally.
One the philippine eagle is the only large eagle with the luxury of being able to tackle such prey with its only repercussion is possibly dying to such animal instead of kleptoparasitism or predation from other large predators.
Two it was not successful never said it died just it wasn’t a successful hunt and I can’t find what you are referencing but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Three again outliers do not represent the majority.
Four develop your argument for why it should win instead of trying to rebuild an already failing and deconstructed proposition.
The night is dark and full of terrors
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#85
Quote:HoundMaster -"One the philippine eagle is the only large eagle with the luxury of being able to tackle such prey."

Thats it!.. finally! other large eagles cannot and wont prey on large snakes.

Harpy eagle and Crowned eagle both have many competitors in their home-range but the ACEagle still  hunts on the lower ground... what your excuse with the Harpy eagle?

You cant find what Im referrencing??! .. you can find it in every data posted about its diet which are available in the web ..you want source on its snake prey diet? It had a lineage with the snake eagles for crying out loud, its not impossible for this bird to prey on snakes

The primary prey for the eagles seen in Luzon are monkeysbirdsflying foxes, giant cloud-rats Phloeomys pallidus which can weigh twice as much as flying lemurs at 2 to 2.5 kg (4.4 to 5.5 lb), and reptiles such as large snakes and lizards.[
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#86
I can’t find it so can you help me or just ignore me trying to have a civilized argument with you instead you nitpick and do not back up your claims constantly changing the subject or stubbornly relying on moot assessments.
The philippine eagle has no large felids or canids the most common kleptoparasitic predators throughout biomes within its home range.
Stop looking for holes in my argument because I put thought and reason into my propositions.
You seem to try to use half truths from my arguments to try to refute them which does not work because that is flawed logic and reasoning. Even when I accepted your evidence provided, though not the strongest, you still run away from the main point of my claims and attack auxiliary propositions or those not argued by me at all.
I shall repeat again
Outliers are not indicative of the status of the majority of the selection. Just because a few can does not mean all can.
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#87
What is flawed logic or acceptable to you may not acceptable to others vice-versa you are not in position to tell which is acceptable or not unless you have a scietific back up of your claim. I presented proof documented studies and yet are not the strongest for you to consider.

"because a few can does not mean all can."

Same goes with the PE taking on a large python and unable to succeed which was the first to be documented. it doesn't mean that never have succeed in the past and Its not the first time encounter for sure because retics python are very common in Philippine forest absolutely not the lasts either. coz' you already assumed that it can never happen that it is possible for the eagle to kill a large snake like the retics.
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#88
Can someone define "large python" because it's very rare for a rectic to actually become large in the Philippines, unless it's a captured one being fed dogs and goats every other month and put on some side show display in a village to make money off of foreigners. Finding one over 12 feet in the wild would be a stretch there, so I'm wondering just how big a python the PE has actually recorded taking?
I also agree with the other posters that just because the ACE and HE don't prey on large snakes doesn't mean they can't. The environment both of those forest eagles live in is far, far, more dangerous than the one the PE lives in, rife with large predators capable of killing the bird. Those eagles can't afford to engage in a prolonged struggle with a prey animal, especially on the ground, they need to kill everything quickly so they retain freedom of movement. Maybe that's the reason why the ACE and HE have larger, stronger, more well developed feet and talons than the PE has, since they don't have the luxury of a prolonged battle with prey animals.
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#89
^Thank you but I don’t think wallacetic will still understand.

Wallacetic I have read on other sites that the philippine colugo lives on every island as the Philippine eagle except for Luzon. But you will still pick and choose. Also the majority of philippine Colugos and philippine eagles live on the same island mindanao. I never said it doesn’t happen just that it is not the norm across the species as an entirety instead of an isolated population that does not represent the norm. Twisting my words and cherry picking again.
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#90
(03-21-2019, 12:28 PM)Brogan Wrote: Can someone define "large python" because it's very rare for a rectic to actually become large in the Philippines, unless it's a captured one being fed dogs and goats every other month and put on some side show display in a village to make money off of foreigners.  Finding one over 12 feet in the wild would be a stretch there, so I'm wondering just how big a python the PE has actually recorded taking?
I also agree with the other posters that just because the ACE and HE don't prey on large snakes doesn't mean they can't.  The environment both of those forest eagles live in is far, far, more dangerous than the one the PE lives in, rife with large predators capable of killing the bird.  Those eagles can't afford to engage in a prolonged struggle with a prey animal, especially on the ground, they need to kill everything quickly so they retain freedom of movement.  Maybe that's the reason why the ACE and HE have larger, stronger, more well developed feet and talons than the PE has, since they don't have the luxury of a prolonged battle with prey animals.
Well said, the 'large' Python here is just really vague. @Wallacetic is acting like as if the Philippine eagle actually attacked a 20 ft/6 m long Python or something. How can anyone consider that 'attacking large Python' as an impressive feat when:
1. The size of the Python is undefined, how big is a 'large' python?
2. The Philippine eagle actually failed to kill the snake.

Frankly, the Philippine eagle in that case was most likely a young and inexperienced individual who bit of more than it can chew. Experienced predators should know what types of preys they could capture and consume, not going into a prolonged battle to the death with another dangerous predators. More like a feat of inexperience than an impressive predatory feat.
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