Poll: Who wins?
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Jaguar on land and in water.
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Jaguar on land, Alligator in water
85.71%
12 85.71%
Alligator on land, Jaguar in water
0%
0 0%
Alligator on land and in water.
14.29%
2 14.29%
Total 14 vote(s) 100%
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Pantanal Jaguar v American Alligator
#61
(11-26-2018, 02:04 PM)Tupinambis Wrote: lastly on the size of ~2.5m alligator size, from wikipedia (with reputable scientific sourcing) 
"American alligators do not normally reach such extreme sizes. In mature males, most specimens grow up to about 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) in length, and will weigh up to 360 kg (790 lb), while in females, the mature size is normally around 2.6 m (8 ft 6 in), with a body weight of up to 91 kg (201 lb).In Newnans LakeFlorida, adult males averaged 73.2 kg (161 lb) in mass and measured 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in length while adult females averaged 55.1 kg (121 lb) and measured 2.22 m (7 ft 3 in).[27] In Lake Griffin State ParkFlorida, adults weighed on average 57.9 kg (128 lb).Weight at sexual maturity per one study was stated as averaging 30 kg (66 lb) while adult weight was claimed as 160 kg (350 lb)."

Unless I missed something, the largest alligator killed by a Florida panther was 2.7m, not 2.5m, thus probably slightly higher than 100kg (since you say that a 2.6kg alligator is 91kg), not 73kg.

"Abstract
Alligator mississippiensis (American Alligator), ranging in size from 45.7–152.4 cm, have been identified as a Puma concolor coryi (Florida Panther) prey species. On 14 March 2008, we discovered a 269.2-cm Alligator that was killed and fed upon by a male Panther; this record is the largest one reported to date."

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/05...e=sena&

If a 2.6m alligator is 91kg (like you said), then the 2.7m alligator that was killed by a Florida panther would likely be between 100kg to 110kg.
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#62
(11-28-2018, 05:23 AM)Lightning Wrote:
(11-26-2018, 02:04 PM)Tupinambis Wrote: lastly on the size of ~2.5m alligator size, from wikipedia (with reputable scientific sourcing) 
"American alligators do not normally reach such extreme sizes. In mature males, most specimens grow up to about 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in) in length, and will weigh up to 360 kg (790 lb), while in females, the mature size is normally around 2.6 m (8 ft 6 in), with a body weight of up to 91 kg (201 lb).In Newnans LakeFlorida, adult males averaged 73.2 kg (161 lb) in mass and measured 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in length while adult females averaged 55.1 kg (121 lb) and measured 2.22 m (7 ft 3 in).[27] In Lake Griffin State ParkFlorida, adults weighed on average 57.9 kg (128 lb).Weight at sexual maturity per one study was stated as averaging 30 kg (66 lb) while adult weight was claimed as 160 kg (350 lb)."

Unless I missed something, the largest alligator killed by a Florida panther was 2.7m, not 2.5m, thus probably slightly higher than 100kg (since you say that a 2.6kg alligator is 91kg), not 73kg.

"Abstract
Alligator mississippiensis (American Alligator), ranging in size from 45.7–152.4 cm, have been identified as a Puma concolor coryi (Florida Panther) prey species. On 14 March 2008, we discovered a 269.2-cm Alligator that was killed and fed upon by a male Panther; this record is the largest one reported to date."

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/05...e=sena&

If a 2.6m alligator is 91kg (like you said), then the 2.7m alligator that was killed by a Florida panther would likely be between 100kg to 110kg.

Are you really using pedantics over ~.2m? 0.36t? this is what the "~" means in my reply, approximate. Yes, a 2.6 m is said on wikipedia to average 91kg , not 100-110kg, and not the baffling upper 150kg you estimated,based off of the weighed and verified animals i've shown. Have you read those over? rounding up less than 0.2m doesn't help your case. Lastly, i was showing weights of alligators of approximately the same body length with large samples.
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#63
Okay, let's not complicate something that's simple...

A 2.47m gator is around 73.2kg.

A 2.6m gator is around 91kg.

Thus, a 2.7m gator (which was killed by a panther) would have likely been higher than 91kg. Not 150kg and maybe not 110kg but still likely higher than 91kg. Thus, close to 100kg and not around 73kg like you earlier claimed.

Quote: if you're going to claim 0.2m equals out to 20kg or more, that is  clear cut untruthful

I'm not an expert of crocodile lengths and weights but I do know that 6m crocs hundreds of kilograms heavier than 5m crocs and 5m crocs are hundreds of kilograms heavier than 4m crocs. So an alligator being 20kg heavier than an alligator that's 20cm shorter doesn't sound like clear cut untruthful.

Quote:rounding up less than 0.2m doesn't help your case.

I'm correct. That gator that got killed by the panther was 269.2cm. It's higher than 265cm, thus I rounded it up to 2.7m. If it was 264cm or less, I would have rounded it down to 2.6m.
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#64
(11-28-2018, 05:48 AM)Lightning Wrote: Okay, let's not complicate something that's simple...

A 2.47m gator is around 73.2kg.

A 2.6m gator is around 91kg.

Thus, a 2.7m gator (which was killed by a panther) would have likely been higher than 91kg. Not 150kg and maybe not 110kg but still likely higher than 91kg. Thus, close to 100kg and not around 73kg like you earlier claimed.
Right, let's not complicate things here. I've got access to the source for the claim of 91kg average in males, and it isn't very convincing....okay, this might be more complicated than i initially thought, but whatever. This study Goodwin and Marlon(1979) on the seasonal activity patterns of 9 sexually mature (2.0m-2.8m) alligators; 4 males, 5 females.

a mean total body length of 2.47m and a mean mass of 73.25kg for these 4 males
 A mean total body length of 2.22m a mean body mass of 55.08kg for these 5 females

The mean out of this sample for alligators in general (Males +females) is 2.34m in total body length and 64kg. I am not sure why this is claimed to be 91kg, as none of the animals weigh 91kg and math quickly dispells that.
 Here is a screenshot of the animals morphometric data for reference
[Image: eurPLep.png]
There was an animal of 2.86m total body length that weighed 110kg, but if i choose to do the rounding game, as you have, this is a 2.9m alligator, if i really want to i can round that for 3m. I do not understand why you're speaking in absolutes, when you aren't presenting data to help your argument, instead rather highlighting the length of the preyed alligator (3 times now in this thread, it was already posted).

Quote:I'm correct. That gator that got killed by the panther was 269.2cm. It's higher than 265cm, thus I rounded it up to 2.7m. If it was 264cm or less, I would have rounded it down to 2.6m.
 
Once more, pedantics don't help your case, neither does you speaking in absolutes and claiming you're correct. I can also play the pedantics of less than 1 foot, 5 inches in the case of the preyed upon alligator and my use of the "approximate" sign, which you also apparently have failed to register the use of in my context, but it hurts your case further. 

Edit: I'm rather slow with my edits, i've tuned up my prior reply, and this one as well, to better illustrate what i want to say.
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#65
Ok, thanks for that post, it makes things a lot clearer.
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#66
I am always glad to clear things up. Sometimes the Wikipedia articles are misleading, so i figured i would look into this claim further.

Here is some more morphometric data on male alligators, all north of 7ft from a 1972 study on moving habits of Alligators in Louisiana.
[Image: i4Sw6E2.png]
The mean total body length of these 14 male alligators was 2.86m and a  body mass of 110kg, Interestingly, this matches the body mass of the largest animal of the Newman lake males. This sample is perhaps skewed by the presence of animals north of 9ft(8 out of 14) though, so take that as you will.



Late edit: Looks like i misread the wiki article, this is not the source of the claims for 91kg averages for 2.6m animals, those are far less reputable.

They are as follows:
  • "Because maturity is related to body size, this means that alligators in Louisiana may reach maturity earlier than those in South Carolina. As alligators get larger their growth rate slows, and once an alligator becomes reproductively mature its growth rate drops dramatically. Male alligators grow faster and larger than females. Females can attain approximately 9 ft (2.7 m) in length and 200+ lbs (91 kg). Males can grow to 13+ ft (4 m) and 500+ lbs (227 kg). The record alligator, taken on Marsh Island, Louisiana, was reported to be 19’2” long. http://srelherp.uga.edu/SPARC/PDFs/gator...sheetA.pdf
  • "Male alligators are larger than female alligators. The average adult size for a female is 8.2 feet (2.6 meters), and the average size for a male is 11.2 feet (3.4 meters). Exceptionally large males can reach a weight of nearly half a ton or 1,000 pounds (454 kilograms)."
    https://nationalzoo.si.edu/animals/american-alligator
Neither of these sources claim 2.6m and 91kg average, neither is scientifically reputable with cited papers. Just wanted to further lear this up here.
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