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Ngandong Tiger - Panthera (tigris) soloensis
#1
Taipan Wrote:Ngandong Tiger - Panthera (tigris) soloensis

[Image: Panthera-t-sol1-738x591.jpg]

Temporal range: Pleistocene

Scientific classification
Kingdom:Animalia
Phylum:Chordata
Class:Mammalia
Order:Carnivora
Family:Felidae
Genus:Panthera
Species:P. tigris
Subspecies:Panthera tigris soloensis

The Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis), is an extinct subspecies of tiger which lived in what is now the Sundaland region of Indonesia in the Pleistocene epoch.

Discoveries
Fossils of P. t. soloensis have been found primarily in the village of Ngandong, hence the common name. Only seven fossils are known, making study of the animal difficult.

Description
The few remains of P. t. soloensis known suggest that the animal would have been about the size of a modern-day Bengal tiger. However, other specimens suggest an animal larger than any of the modern tigers in Indonesia. Heltler and Volmer (2007) estimated that a large male could potentially weigh up to 470 kg (1,040 pounds), heavier than the Bengal tiger, one of the largest extant cats. Although Raúl Valvert (2014) later estimated the head-body length to be between 172 and 233 cm (5.64 and 7.64 ft), while the total length was estimated to be 258–350 cm (8.46–11.48 ft), both taken in straight line. The minimum weight for females was estimated at 143 kg (315 lb), with males weighing up to 368 kg (811 lb), with exceptional specimen weighing up to 400 kg (880 lb).

Paleoecology
In addition to the remains of P. t. soloensis, many other fossils from the same era have been discovered in Ngandong, like the proboscideans Stegodon trigonocephalus and Elephas hysudrindicus, the bovines Bubalus palaeokerabau and Bos paleosondaicus, the extant perissodactyls Tapirus indicus and Rhinoceros sondaicus, and a great variety of cervine species. Homo erectus fossils are also known from the area.

Taipan Wrote:
mack Wrote:Tigers of Early Pleistocene were smaller then those of today, but in the Middle Pleistocene there grow much larger.

This is the measurments of Pleistocene tigers:


[Image: 7adf3039f172.jpg]

mack Wrote:Here is a hundred years old right upper-canine tooth from a very large Amur tiger discovered in Harbin city of Northeast China. 

The length in straight line is 15.4 cm and the mass of the particular tooth is 168.3 grams. 


Compared to the American lion (Panthera atrox) which has 12.7cm (the largest known canine is about 13 cm):
[Image: ko-104-lg.jpg]


Here is some older fossils, maybe it belongs to a late-Pleistocene Siberian Tiger. 

The lower canine is about 13 cm and the mandible could had been over 30 cm if it was unbroken.  


The mandible (lower jaw) of a very large American lion (above) compared to Pleistocene tiger (below):

Panthera tigris soloensis Wrote:The weight of the 470 kg specimen was derived using regression terms for 
felids (skull length and lower M1 length as far as I remember) published 
by Blaire van Valkenburgh in Damuth & MacFadden (1990): Body Size in 
Mammalian Paleobiology according to personal communicatiosn with Dr. Hertler.


  These are the measurements given in the German document "Beitrag zur Kenntnis der Fossilen Wirbeltiere Javas Teil I. Wetenschappelijke Mededeelingen - Dienst Mijnbouw Nederlansch-Indië, 23.1", by von Koenigswald, G.H.R., 1933;  (page 12) :


                                                Femur             


Total Length/mm                   480                


Proximal Diameters/mm


- Transverse                            94                    


- Sagittal (AP)                         59                   


Distal Diameters/mm


- Transverse                            88                    


- Sagittal (AP)                         82                   

Ursus arctos Wrote:
blaze Wrote:I'll like to see a weight estimate based on a newer formula like those used by Christiansen, mmm hope it happens one day.
Would be much smaller.

Van Valkenburgh 1990 overestimates the mass of large felids (based on condylobasal skull length, at least) and Anyonge 1993 overestimates the mass of large felids as well.

For those unfamiliar, Van Valkenburgh 1990 and Anyonge 1993 are the two sources for regressions used to estimate body mass of the Ngandong tiger in "Assessing prey competition in fossil carnivore communities — a scenario for prey competition and its evolutionary consequences for tigers in Pleistocene Java" by Christine Hertler and Rebekka Volmer.

EDIT: Overestimation is not minor. Wroe's skull from an estimated 267 kg lion used in "Cranial mechanics compared in extinct marsupial and extant African lions using a finite‐element approach" probably belonged to an animal weighing around 200 kg, and Anyonge 1993 estimated an average body mass for P. atrox, using felid regression equations, of 420 kg, or 444 when excluding length measures. Christiansen's recent estimate of 255.65 kg as average for males is far smaller.

Taipan, Wrote:
WaveRiders_ Wrote:Prof Per Christiansen has been one of the best Paleontologist around for the last 20 years specialized in allometric scaling techniques applied to body size and mass estimation of extinct animals.

This is what he thinks about fossil tigers alleged to represent 470 kg individuals or sort of similar weight (the e-mail was sent to an Internet poster, not me, a few years ago and definitely still valid)

[Image: _sBJXFXQNtqQ7bja0u-GX1purgurWB4WEbjl0W0JWA=w572-h555-no]
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#2
(06-05-2018, 05:45 PM)Taipan Wrote:
Taipan Wrote:Ngandong Tiger - Panthera (tigris) soloensis

[Image: Panthera-t-sol1-738x591.jpg]

Temporal range: Pleistocene

Scientific classification
Kingdom:Animalia
Phylum:Chordata
Class:Mammalia
Order:Carnivora
Family:Felidae
Genus:Panthera
Species:P. tigris
Subspecies:Panthera tigris soloensis

The Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis), is an extinct subspecies of tiger which lived in what is now the Sundaland region of Indonesia in the Pleistocene epoch.

Discoveries
Fossils of P. t. soloensis have been found primarily in the village of Ngandong, hence the common name. Only seven fossils are known, making study of the animal difficult.

Description
The few remains of P. t. soloensis known suggest that the animal would have been about the size of a modern-day Bengal tiger. However, other specimens suggest an animal larger than any of the modern tigers in Indonesia. Heltler and Volmer (2007) estimated that a large male could potentially weigh up to 470 kg (1,040 pounds), heavier than the Bengal tiger, one of the largest extant cats. Although Raúl Valvert (2014) later estimated the head-body length to be between 172 and 233 cm (5.64 and 7.64 ft), while the total length was estimated to be 258–350 cm (8.46–11.48 ft), both taken in straight line. The minimum weight for females was estimated at 143 kg (315 lb), with males weighing up to 368 kg (811 lb), with exceptional specimen weighing up to 400 kg (880 lb).

Paleoecology
In addition to the remains of P. t. soloensis, many other fossils from the same era have been discovered in Ngandong, like the proboscideans Stegodon trigonocephalus and Elephas hysudrindicus, the bovines Bubalus palaeokerabau and Bos paleosondaicus, the extant perissodactyls Tapirus indicus and Rhinoceros sondaicus, and a great variety of cervine species. Homo erectus fossils are also known from the area.

Taipan Wrote:
mack Wrote:Tigers of Early Pleistocene were smaller then those of today, but in the Middle Pleistocene there grow much larger.

This is the measurments of Pleistocene tigers:


[Image: 7adf3039f172.jpg]

mack Wrote:Here is a hundred years old right upper-canine tooth from a very large Amur tiger discovered in Harbin city of Northeast China. 

The length in straight line is 15.4 cm and the mass of the particular tooth is 168.3 grams. 


Compared to the American lion (Panthera atrox) which has 12.7cm (the largest known canine is about 13 cm):
[Image: ko-104-lg.jpg]


Here is some older fossils, maybe it belongs to a late-Pleistocene Siberian Tiger. 

The lower canine is about 13 cm and the mandible could had been over 30 cm if it was unbroken.  


The mandible (lower jaw) of a very large American lion (above) compared to Pleistocene tiger (below):

Panthera tigris soloensis Wrote:The weight of the 470 kg specimen was derived using regression terms for 
felids (skull length and lower M1 length as far as I remember) published 
by Blaire van Valkenburgh in Damuth & MacFadden (1990): Body Size in 
Mammalian Paleobiology according to personal communicatiosn with Dr. Hertler.


  These are the measurements given in the German document "Beitrag zur Kenntnis der Fossilen Wirbeltiere Javas Teil I. Wetenschappelijke Mededeelingen - Dienst Mijnbouw Nederlansch-Indië, 23.1", by von Koenigswald, G.H.R., 1933;  (page 12) :


                                                Femur             


Total Length/mm                   480                


Proximal Diameters/mm


- Transverse                            94                    


- Sagittal (AP)                         59                   


Distal Diameters/mm


- Transverse                            88                    


- Sagittal (AP)                         82                   

Ursus arctos Wrote:
blaze Wrote:I'll like to see a weight estimate based on a newer formula like those used by Christiansen, mmm hope it happens one day.
Would be much smaller.

Van Valkenburgh 1990 overestimates the mass of large felids (based on condylobasal skull length, at least) and Anyonge 1993 overestimates the mass of large felids as well.

For those unfamiliar, Van Valkenburgh 1990 and Anyonge 1993 are the two sources for regressions used to estimate body mass of the Ngandong tiger in "Assessing prey competition in fossil carnivore communities — a scenario for prey competition and its evolutionary consequences for tigers in Pleistocene Java" by Christine Hertler and Rebekka Volmer.

EDIT: Overestimation is not minor. Wroe's skull from an estimated 267 kg lion used in "Cranial mechanics compared in extinct marsupial and extant African lions using a finite‐element approach" probably belonged to an animal weighing around 200 kg, and Anyonge 1993 estimated an average body mass for P. atrox, using felid regression equations, of 420 kg, or 444 when excluding length measures. Christiansen's recent estimate of 255.65 kg as average for males is far smaller.

Taipan, Wrote:
WaveRiders_ Wrote:Prof Per Christiansen has been one of the best Paleontologist around for the last 20 years specialized in allometric scaling techniques applied to body size and mass estimation of extinct animals.

This is what he thinks about fossil tigers alleged to represent 470 kg individuals or sort of similar weight (the e-mail was sent to an Internet poster, not me, a few years ago and definitely still valid)

[Image: _sBJXFXQNtqQ7bja0u-GX1purgurWB4WEbjl0W0JWA=w572-h555-no]
So with males weighing up to 368 kg (811 lb), with exceptional specimen weighing up to 400 kg (880 lb) are more authentic information.

How about P atrox compared to this huge tiger
Here is a hundred years old right upper-canine tooth from a very large Amur tiger discovered in Harbin city of Northeast China.

The length in straight line is 15.4 cm and the mass of the particular tooth is 168.3 grams.

Compared to the American lion (Panthera atrox) which has 12.7cm (the largest known canine is about 13 cm):
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