Poll: Who wins?
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Sivatherium giganteum
25.00%
1 25.00%
Shaochilong maortuensis
75.00%
3 75.00%
Total 4 vote(s) 100%
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Sivatherium giganteum v Shaochilong maortuensis
#1
Sivatherium giganteum
Sivatherium ("Shiva's beast") is an extinct genus of giraffid that ranged throughout Africa to the Indian Subcontinent. Sivatherium resembled the modern okapi, but was far larger, and more heavily built. Sivatherium had a wide, antler-like pair of ossicones on its head, and a second pair of ossicones above its eyes. Its shoulders were very powerful to support the neck muscles required to lift the heavy skull. Sivatherium resembled the modern okapi, but was far larger, and more heavily built, being about 2.2 m (7.2 ft) tall at the shoulder, 3 m (9.8 ft) in total height with a weight up to 400–500 kg (880–1,100 lb). A newer estimate has come up with an estimated body mass of about 1,250 kg (2,760 lb). This would make Sivatherium the largest ruminant in history. This weight estimate is thought to be an underestimate, as it does not take into account the large horns possessed by males of the species. Sivatherium had a wide, antler-like pair of ossicones on its head, and a second pair of ossicones above its eyes. Its shoulders were very powerful to support the neck muscles required to lift the heavy skull.

[Image: Sivatherium-giganteum-738x591.jpg]

Shaochilong maortuensis
Shaochilong (meaning "shark toothed dragon") is a genus of carcharodontosaurid dinosaur from the mid Cretaceous (Turonian stage) Ulansuhai Formation of China (about 92 million years ago). The type species, S. maortuensis, was originally named Chilantaisaurus maortuensis, but was re-described and reclassified in 2009. The holotype, IVPP V2885.1-7, consisting of skull fragments, axis and six caudal vertebrae associated to a single individual is the only known specimen. This specimen was discovered in Outer Mongolia and described by Hu in 1964 as a species of Chilantaisaurus. Chure (2002) and Rauhut (2001) suggested that it did not belong to that genus, and was probably a primitive coelurosaur. However, a re-description by Brusatte and colleagues in 2009 found that it was in fact a carcharodontosaurid, the first recognized from Asia. The genus was originally informally named "Alashansaurus". IVPP V2885.1 was probably adult or nearly adult individual. Its length – based on the length of the maxillary tooth row – is estimated of 5 to 6 metres (16 to 20 ft). Estimated length of the femur is 61.5 cm, what suggests that whole animal weighted approximately 500 kilograms (1,100 lb).

[Image: 800px-Shaochilong.jpg]



(11-08-2018, 08:58 PM)ChocolateCake123 Wrote: Sivatherium vs Shaochilong/Concavenator
I am pretty sure that's fair, but if not, can we have 4-6 dire wolves vs Shaochilong?
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#2
The dinosaur wins with jaws, agility and killer instinct.
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#3
Thanks Taipan, and Lightning for commenting.
I think Shaochilong would win, for the same reasons Lightning stated above. It also has an especially damaging bite, being a carcharodontosaurid. I feel as if it would be able to maneuver around the Sivatherium's powerful legs and kicks, then deliver some killing bites.
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#4
(11-09-2018, 11:56 PM)Lightning Wrote: The dinosaur wins with jaws, agility and killer instinct.

S. giganteum may have been two and half times heavier than the theropod (1,250 kg vs 500 kg), and if it was anything like modern giraffe, it would have had a flexible, powerful neck that could deliver heavy yet precise blows during a fight. S. giganteum wielded more prominent ossicones than the modern giraffe, and given their sharp tips as well, I reckon the giraffid would have been able to gore an opponent with its headgear.

If the theropod commits to an attack, I am not convinced that it could avoid retaliation from the giraffid. There is a massive size disparity between the animals here, and it's heavily in favour of the giraffid. S. giganteum has also got at least 2 inches of hide covering it, and greater bulk. Giraffids are appropriately armed, as explained by the following excerpt.


Quote:We know of eight anecdotal accounts of male giraffes injuring or killing their opponents during combat. In a fight between semicaptive giraffe, one animal was thrown sideways several feet by blows from the other. Dagg and Foster reported a male knocked unconscious by a blow from an opponent; another male was killed when the other punched a hole in its opponent's neck just below the ear, splintering the top vertebrae, which penetrated the spinal column. Resnik photographed a male with a broken and twisted jaw following a blow from an opponent, and Coe recorded a death during "necking" of a captive male giraffe, mistakenly allowed into the enclosure of a similar-sized male.

In three fights recorded in our study between large (old) bulls in northwestern Namibia, head clubbing resulted in the opponent being knocked to the ground on each occasion. The force was sufficient to break an opponent's leg in one encounter, and, in the most violent encounter, a male clubbed his rival to the ground, and the rival was prevented from standing by the opponent stamping its foreleg until death occurred. This is the only known record of a giraffe using its hooves in intraspecific aggression. 

Author: Winning by a Neck: Sexual Selection in the Evolution of Giraffe


I disagree with the current consensus. 

I think the giraffid would be in a viable position to knock down the theropod with a good whack, and subsequently stomp it to death.
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#5
Something else to consider is that giraffids have particularly thick skin on certain parts of their frame, which is often thought to act as a defense mechanism. The areas of a giraffe likely to be injured during intraspecific fighting, as well as body parts where predators frequently choose to attack, are endowed with thick skin to resist puncture. 


Quote:Potential Dermal Armor

Although regional variations in the thickness of mammalian skin are a feature of many mammals, it has been posited that in certain larger mammals the thickness of the skin may act as a protective shield, with the location of increased thicknesses of the dermis related to regions likely to be injured during intraspecific combat. In this study of the giraffe, we found a large region of thick skin on the upper half of the trunk/rump and a substantially thickened deep dermal region on the anterior and lateral surfaces of the neck. Intraspecific combat in male giraffe is evidenced mostly as “necking” behavior. Given this method of intraspecific aggression, it is possible that the thicker skin of the neck may provide a protective function; however, this does not explain the thickness of the skin on the upper trunk/rump. As far as the authors are aware, there are no reports of giraffe, for example, biting one another on the trunk/rump during intraspecific combat.

Although it is well known that lion will kill giraffe, the authors cannot find the exact attack method described in the scientific literature; however, natural history documentaries often feature lions leaping onto the giraffe's back to pull it to the ground. Thus, the thickened skin in this region may provide protection against the claws and teeth of potential predators. Despite this, it is most likely that the thickness of the giraffe skin on both the anterior neck and rump is related to protection from the thorns of the acacia trees on which it feeds. These regions of increased skin thickness would allow the giraffe to move around in dense acacia vegetation and not suffer from cuts to the skin that would cause major openings and extensive bleeding. It is of interest to note here that these regions of thickened skin that may correspond to dermal armor are indeed far thicker than what would be predicted allometrically, thus supporting the possibility of specific increases in skin thickness as a potential defense mechanism.

Study: Variations in the Thickness and Composition of the Skin of the Giraffe


This thickness of hide, as well as much larger body size, brings doubt to the aforementioned notions that the theropod could fatally injure the ruminant before being shaken to the ground and trampled to death.
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#6
Couldn't the theropod bite through the thick hide?
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvrzjqcLyE2x1TQvejwfq...4IDvD2d3Tt]
OldMan
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#7
The shaochilong is more agile and shorter than the sivatherium by a good amount. Hence, I think it will be really difficult for the sivatherium to neck-whack the shaochilong

I got this image of the shaochilong from prehistoric wildlife (it's not a very good source but it's better than nothing and I'm not sure where to look for scientific sources):
[Image: shaochilong-size.jpg]

And this is an image of the old, 400kg to 500kg estimate of sivatherium:
[Image: sivatherium-size.jpg] 

Thus, the 400/500kg estimate of sivatherium is already taller than the shaochilong. The new 1250kg estimate would show a much taller giraffe. I find it hard to imagine it neck-whacking the shorter, more agile theropod.

It would be even more difficult for the sivatherium to gore the theropod with its horns and the sivatherium's horns look less impressive than bovine horns:
[Image: 440px-Sivatherium_giganteus_2.JPG]

The sivatherium may have a thick hide but this theropod has far deadlier weaponry than the much smaller lions the sivatherium would have had to deal with. The shaochilong's skull would have likely been around 70cm, as long as a hippo skull, and, being a carcharodontosaurid, its jaws are filled with serrated teeth which slice through meat easily, would cause massive wounds and kill the prey through huge amounts of blood loss.

Sharks also have serrated teeth (and shaochiling means "shark toothed dragon" lol) and this is what a shark bite did to a seal:
[Image: slide71.jpg]

A bite from a shaochilong would do similar damage.

I know the sivatherium's thick hide is much harder to penetrate than seal blubber but I still doubt it'd be able to stand up to the theropod's huge jaws.

I think the theropod can keep doing bite-and-run attacks until the giraffe collapses from its wounds. And I think the theropod would be too agile for the sivatherium to attack it.

A close modern analogy to this match up I think would be coyotes killing mule deer like this:







It's not a perfect analogy since sivatherium is proportionally more durable than deer and the shaochilong has proportionally larger jaws and a far deadlier bite than a coytote but it's the closest I can think of.

I realise that this is a lone shaochilong vs sivatherium match whereas there are 2 and 3 coyotes in those videos I posted but a mule deer is 5X heavier than a coyote whilst a sivatherium is just 2.5X heavier than a shaochilong.
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#8
From DeviantArt member franoys, who is very good with skeletal reconstructions
[Image: shaochilong_maortuensis_skeletal_diagram...cjccpb.png]
Just to get a better idea of size; i am not sure how this goes.
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#9
(11-28-2018, 05:08 AM)Tupinambis Wrote: From DeviantArt member franoys, who is very good with skeletal reconstructions
[Image: shaochilong_maortuensis_skeletal_diagram...cjccpb.png]
Just to get a better idea of size; i am not sure how this goes.

Ok, so the shaochilong is even shorter than the image I posted. It's going to be extremely difficult for the much taller sivatherium to neck-whack it, I don't see it happening.
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#10
Here is a link to a video that may be relevant to the topic here.
I am not able to load it, but I am pretty sure the shark bit through the turtle's shell
https://www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-w...ast-video/


I think this is probably our best analogy of this matchup, as the turtle shell is comparable to the Sivatherium's hide and teh shark's jaws are comparable to the Shaochilong's jaws. Some things to consider, however, is that the Sivatherium's hide would have been comparatively less difficult for the Shaochilong to bite through than a shark and turtle shell because it is less tough in comparison. 
I agree with Lightning that Shaochilong could do bite-and-run attacks until Sivatherium collapses from its injuries.

@Tupinambis, forgot to ask, but who do you favor?
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#11
EDIT: Nevermind this comment. Someone's hacked my account, and commented unecessarily.
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