Poll: Who wins?
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Indochinese Tiger
60.00%
6 60.00%
Amphicyon major
40.00%
4 40.00%
Total 10 vote(s) 100%
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Indochinese Tiger v Amphicyon major
#16
(01-16-2019, 11:15 PM)Taipan Wrote: Indochinese Tiger - Panthera tigris corbetti
The Indochinese tiger (Panthera tigris corbetti) is a tiger subspecies found in Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and southwestern China that has been classified as endangered by IUCN. Its status is poorly known but the extent of its recent decline is serious, approaching the threshold for critically endangered. Panthera tigris corbetti, also called Corbett's tiger, was named in honour of Jim Corbett. Male Indochinese tigers measure 2.55 to 2.85 metres (8.37 to 9.35 ft) in length, weigh 150 to 195 kilograms (330 to 430 lb); the skull measures between 319 to 365 millimetres (13 to 14 in) in length. The average male Indochinese tiger is approximately 2.74 m (9 ft) long and weighs about 181 kg (400 lb). Large individuals can weigh up to 227 kg (500 lb). Female Indochinese tigers measure 2.30 to 2.55 m (7.55 to 8.37 ft) in length, weigh 100 to 130 kg (221 to 287 lb), with a skull length of 275 to 311 mm (11 to 12 in). The average female Indochinese tiger is approximately 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and weighs about 115 kg (253 lb). Indochinese tigers live in secluded forests in hilly to mountainous terrain, the majority of which lies along the borders between countries. Entrance to these areas is frequently restricted and as of late biologists have been granted limited permits for field surveys. For this reason, comparatively little is known about the status of these big cats in the wild. Mother tigers give birth to two or three cubs at a time.Indochinese tigers prey mainly on medium- and large-sized wild ungulates. Sambar deer, wild pigs, serow, and large bovids such as banteng and juvenile gaur comprise the majority of Indochinese tiger’s diet. However, in most of Southeast Asia large animal populations have been seriously depleted because of illegal hunting, resulting in the so-called “empty forest syndrome” – i.e. a forest that looks intact, but where most wildlife has been eliminated. Some species, such as the kouprey and Schomburgk's Deer, are extinct, and Eld's Deer, hog deer and wild water buffalo are present only in a few relict populations. In such habitats tigers are forced to subsist on smaller prey, such as muntjac deer, porcupines, macaques and hog badgers. Small prey by itself is barely sufficient to meet the energy requirements of a large carnivore such as the tiger, and is insufficient for tiger reproduction. This factor, in combination with direct tiger poaching for traditional Chinese medicine, is the main contributor in the collapse of the Indochinese tiger throughout its range.

[Image: Indochinese%20Tiger.jpg]

Amphicyon major
Amphicyon ("ambiguous dog") is an extinct genus of large carnivorous bone-crushing mammals, popularly known as bear dogs, of the family Amphicyonidae, subfamily Amphicyoninae, from the Burdigalian Epoch until the late Pliocene. They ranged over North America, Europe, Asia, and Africa from 16.9—2.6 Ma ago, existing approximately 14.3 million years. Amphicyon was the typical bear-dog amphicyonid with morphology similar to both bears and dogs. It had a large heavy tail, thick neck, robust limbs and teeth like a wolf. It was probably an omnivorewith a lifestyle comparable to that of the brown bear.  Amphicyon major lived from 16.9–9.0 Ma, approximately 7.9 million years. Specimens have been found in across Europe and in western Turkey. The species was named by De Blainville in 1841. A. major was large in size, comparable to a modern lion or tiger. The estimated mass of A. major is around 180 kg (397 lb) with the functions derived for limb bones and craniodental measurements.

[Image: Amphicyon-major-2015-738x591.jpg]


(01-16-2019, 09:11 AM)Fair Whisper Wrote: tiger vs amphicyon major

my vote goes to tiger..
[Image: t70ok8.jpg]
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#17
(01-21-2019, 04:31 PM)Mondas Wrote: Surely.

Did you somehow miss this one, posted a bit earlier? https://carnivora.net/showthread.php?tid=4920

No. It just wasn’t relevant to what I was talking about. At no point did it contradict the analysis I quoted earlier. As a matter of fact, there’s a one very important thing about it that you’re ignoring.
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#18
No srsly,

The study you linked to literally cites the dissertation you're saying it debunks!

[Image: nkFfRXG.png]
[Image: 1nKsIij.gif]
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#19
Well, of course it cites/footnotes older studies, don't you even know how science is done?

However, the point of more recent research is to provide improved findings, such as I'd quoted.

The study also notes that 'form follows function' more broadly, with hypercarnivory adaptation
by felids of recent evolutionary advent allowing for/requiring more advanced predatory capabilities.

The bear-dogs, along with large-bodied canines/mustelids, & primary hypercarnivore bears were
thus ousted from their roles, as noted in a number of articles.
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#20
(01-23-2019, 02:48 PM)Mondas Wrote: The bear-dogs, along with large-bodied canines/mustelids, & primary hypercarnivore bears were
thus ousted from their roles, as noted in a number of articles.

And I suppose American Lions, North American Jaguars and Smilodon fatalis were ousted in their roles by Wolves, Cougars and Brown Bears and would thus lose in a fight against any of the extant species.
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#21
AFAIR Taipan, that mass-extirpation event of North American mega-fauna & large predators was due to other reasons,
but hey if you can cite some reputable studies to support your ideas, go for it.

Addit: Regarding remarks in posts below this one, such as "irrelevant" & "stupid", well just because you don't
grasp such factors/ideas, does not make them "stupid" or "irrelevant", esp' when they are noted in the literature.
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#22
(01-23-2019, 07:43 PM)Mondas Wrote: AFAIR Taipan, that mass-extirpation event of North American mega-fauna & large predators was due to other reasons,
but hey if you can cite some reputable studies to support your ideas, go for it.

That went over your head. Its a stupid argument you continually present on this issue in so many threads. I just thought I'd highlight it, so you could save your time by never posting it again, because it wont be approved.
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#23
(01-23-2019, 02:48 PM)Mondas Wrote: Well, of course it cites/footnotes older studies, don't you even know how science is done?
That's not the point. It cites an older study that you're trying to debunk. Clearly the author has read the source and doesn't consider it as dated and wrong as you do.

I like to think I have a decent idea. Tell me what part of science involves citing a source of information you think is incorrect and saying nothing to acknowledge it? 

Quote:However, the point of more recent research is to provide improved findings, such as I'd quoted.
Except those findings didn't contradict the less recent findings. They weren't even researching the same thing. For godsake, it doesn't even mention the word "elbow" outside of the footnotes. This is totally apples to oranges. 

Quote:The study also notes that 'form follows function' more broadly, with hypercarnivory adaptation
by felids of recent evolutionary advent allowing for/requiring more advanced predatory capabilities.
Red herring. No one said anything about "predatory capabilities". If you don't actually want to address what I was talking about, then let that be that. Don't try moving the goalpost to something else. 

Quote:The bear-dogs, along with large-bodied canines/mustelids, & primary hypercarnivore bears were 
thus ousted from their roles, as noted in a number of articles.
Irrelevant.
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#24
Amphicyon has a long skull but so narrow.

[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTburi1TkU5xRVkyOXzC...GmGIyiDYWP]
Tiger's skull wider.

[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTlNNCpm4l5T2jaqDli9...bHeIGu2c24]

Canids' skulls like Spinosaurus skull. In side view, yes good and looks horrible but in top view, so narrow..

Felids' skull like T-Rex skull. In side view, shorter and less teeth but in top view far wider.
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#25
Going by this chart from the study Mondas posted, Amphicyon (Amphicyonids are labeled by the green squares) manages to have very robust scapula, humerus, and radius even among the cats (red circles) other than Smilodon.
[Image: journal.pone.0085574.g007]
Source: A Three-Dimensional Analysis of Morphological Evolution and Locomotor Performance of the Carnivoran Forelimb
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