Poll: Who wins?
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Asiatic Lion
29.41%
5 29.41%
Pleistocene Jaguar
70.59%
12 70.59%
Total 17 vote(s) 100%
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Asiatic Lion v Pleistocene Jaguar
#1
Asiatic Lion - Panthera leo persica
The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion, is a lion subspecies that exists as a single isolated population in India's Gujarat State. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN based on the small population size. The lion population has steadily increased in Gir Forest National Park, more than doubling from a low of 180 individuals in 1974 to a level of 411 individuals consisting of 97 adult males, 162 adult females, 75 sub-adults, and 77 cubs as of April 2010. The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus. It is one of the five big cats found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard. It formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sind in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane. The most striking morphological character, which is always seen in Asiatic lions, but rarely in African lions, is a longitudinal fold of skin running along its belly. The Gir lion is similar in size to the Central African lion, and smaller than large African lions. Adult males weigh 160 to 190 kg (350 to 420 lb).

[Image: 480px-Asiatic_Male_Lion_in_Gir_Forest_National_Park.jpg]

Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta
Panthera onca augusta, commonly known as the Pleistocene North American jaguar, is an extinct subspecies of the jaguar that was endemic to North and South America during the Pleistocene epoch (1.8 mya—11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 10.2 million years. Fossils have been uncovered from Cueva del Mylodon, Chile, Piaui, Brazil, and north to Adams County, Washington. The jaguar is the largest member of the cat family living today in the western hemisphere. Modern jaguars range in weight from 36 to 158 kg (80 to 350 lbs). During the last Ice Age, the jaguars found in the United States were even larger than this. Some may have weighed up to 190 kg (420 lbs).

[Image: Panthera-onca-augusta.jpg]



(02-13-2019, 05:21 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta vs Asiatic lion i think this thread still in your waiting list


Hopefully that has given you plenty of time to research interesting information on both these species to post in this matchup.
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#2
The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.
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#3
Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT3njqF11jQ7D2WpTr-l...iTQwMphaum]
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#4
158 kg jaguar vs 190 kg lion, my votes to jaguar most powerful cat having skull breaking jaw.

(02-13-2019, 11:06 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.

hope lion mane's hair is not much that strong like caiman's armor header skin. 

[Image: 345yf7t.jpg]

(02-13-2019, 11:36 PM)Uncia Wrote: Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.

158 jaguar enough for 190 kg lion.
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#5
(02-14-2019, 04:51 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: 158 kg jaguar vs 190 kg lion, my votes to jaguar most powerful cat having skull breaking jaw.

(02-13-2019, 11:06 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.

hope lion mane's hair is not much that strong like caiman's armor header skin. 

[Image: 345yf7t.jpg]

(02-13-2019, 11:36 PM)Uncia Wrote: Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.

158 jaguar enough for 190 kg lion.
158 v 190 is disputable. 30-32 kg not a little difference. 

But totally at parity, 190v190 jaguar wins definitely by fatality.
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT3njqF11jQ7D2WpTr-l...iTQwMphaum]
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#6
(02-14-2019, 05:14 AM)Uncia Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 04:51 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: 158 kg jaguar vs 190 kg lion, my votes to jaguar most powerful cat having skull breaking jaw.

(02-13-2019, 11:06 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.

hope lion mane's hair is not much that strong like caiman's armor header skin. 

[Image: 345yf7t.jpg]

(02-13-2019, 11:36 PM)Uncia Wrote: Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.

158 jaguar enough for 190 kg lion.
158 v 190 is disputable. 30-32 kg not a little difference. 

But totally at parity, 190v190 jaguar wins definitely by fatality.

regardless of weight advantage jaguar has power full jaw

(02-13-2019, 08:49 PM)Taipan Wrote: Asiatic Lion - Panthera leo persica
The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion, is a lion subspecies that exists as a single isolated population in India's Gujarat State. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN based on the small population size. The lion population has steadily increased in Gir Forest National Park, more than doubling from a low of 180 individuals in 1974 to a level of 411 individuals consisting of 97 adult males, 162 adult females, 75 sub-adults, and 77 cubs as of April 2010. The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus. It is one of the five big cats found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard. It formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sind in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane. The most striking morphological character, which is always seen in Asiatic lions, but rarely in African lions, is a longitudinal fold of skin running along its belly.  The Gir lion is similar in size to the Central African lion, and smaller than large African lions. Adult males weigh 160 to 190 kg (350 to 420 lb).

[Image: Male-Asiatic-lion.jpg]

Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta
Panthera onca augusta, commonly known as the Pleistocene North American jaguar, is an extinct subspecies of the jaguar that was endemic to North and South America during the Pleistocene epoch (1.8 mya—11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 10.2 million years. Fossils have been uncovered from Cueva del Mylodon, Chile, Piaui, Brazil, and north to Adams County, Washington. The jaguar is the largest member of the cat family living today in the western hemisphere. Modern jaguars range in weight from 36 to 158 kg (80 to 350 lbs). During the last Ice Age, the jaguars found in the United States were even larger than this. Some may have weighed up to 190 kg (420 lbs).

[Image: Panthera-onca-augusta.jpg]



(02-13-2019, 05:21 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta vs Asiatic lion i think this thread still in your waiting list


Hopefully that has given you plenty of time to research interesting information on both these species to post in this matchup.

Thanks Taipan
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#7
(02-14-2019, 05:23 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 05:14 AM)Uncia Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 04:51 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: 158 kg jaguar vs 190 kg lion, my votes to jaguar most powerful cat having skull breaking jaw.

(02-13-2019, 11:06 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.

hope lion mane's hair is not much that strong like caiman's armor header skin. 

[Image: 345yf7t.jpg]

(02-13-2019, 11:36 PM)Uncia Wrote: Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.

158 jaguar enough for 190 kg lion.
158 v 190 is disputable. 30-32 kg not a little difference. 

But totally at parity, 190v190 jaguar wins definitely by fatality.

regardless of weight advantage jaguar has power full jaw

(02-13-2019, 08:49 PM)Taipan Wrote: Asiatic Lion - Panthera leo persica
The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion, is a lion subspecies that exists as a single isolated population in India's Gujarat State. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN based on the small population size. The lion population has steadily increased in Gir Forest National Park, more than doubling from a low of 180 individuals in 1974 to a level of 411 individuals consisting of 97 adult males, 162 adult females, 75 sub-adults, and 77 cubs as of April 2010. The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus. It is one of the five big cats found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard. It formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sind in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane. The most striking morphological character, which is always seen in Asiatic lions, but rarely in African lions, is a longitudinal fold of skin running along its belly.  The Gir lion is similar in size to the Central African lion, and smaller than large African lions. Adult males weigh 160 to 190 kg (350 to 420 lb).

[Image: Male-Asiatic-lion.jpg]

Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta
Panthera onca augusta, commonly known as the Pleistocene North American jaguar, is an extinct subspecies of the jaguar that was endemic to North and South America during the Pleistocene epoch (1.8 mya—11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 10.2 million years. Fossils have been uncovered from Cueva del Mylodon, Chile, Piaui, Brazil, and north to Adams County, Washington. The jaguar is the largest member of the cat family living today in the western hemisphere. Modern jaguars range in weight from 36 to 158 kg (80 to 350 lbs). During the last Ice Age, the jaguars found in the United States were even larger than this. Some may have weighed up to 190 kg (420 lbs).

[Image: Panthera-onca-augusta.jpg]



(02-13-2019, 05:21 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta vs Asiatic lion i think this thread still in your waiting list


Hopefully that has given you plenty of time to research interesting information on both these species to post in this matchup.

Thanks Taipan

Stronger jaw isn't the same thing with have higher chance.

190 kg lion already has good chance against 158 kg jaguar. But 190v190 jaguar should kill.
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT3njqF11jQ7D2WpTr-l...iTQwMphaum]
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#8
What is it with posters doing multiple quotes of the thread-header/blurb data? It does get a bit annoying.

Anyhow, the lion's well-honed cat-vs-cat combat skills, duly earned via his social upbringing, will enable the win, here.

I'd note that while a smaller spotted pantherine (the leopard) kept its place in the 'Old World' alongside the
bigger lion & tiger through to recent times, jaguars did not.

(Even if jags were better suited for survival in reduced prey-size circumstances, which happened in the Americas).
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#9
(02-14-2019, 05:55 AM)Uncia Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 05:23 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 05:14 AM)Uncia Wrote:
(02-14-2019, 04:51 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: 158 kg jaguar vs 190 kg lion, my votes to jaguar most powerful cat having skull breaking jaw.

(02-13-2019, 11:06 PM)Old Tibetan Blue Bear Wrote: The african lion is still larger and has it mane protrcting its neck. Gir lions are more solitary than their african counterparts as males only join in to feed or mate.

hope lion mane's hair is not much that strong like caiman's armor header skin. 

[Image: 345yf7t.jpg]

(02-13-2019, 11:36 PM)Uncia Wrote: Average lion 6/10.
At max. 190 kg lion vs 190 kg jaguar, jaguar wins.

158 jaguar enough for 190 kg lion.
158 v 190 is disputable. 30-32 kg not a little difference. 

But totally at parity, 190v190 jaguar wins definitely by fatality.

regardless of weight advantage jaguar has power full jaw

(02-13-2019, 08:49 PM)Taipan Wrote: Asiatic Lion - Panthera leo persica
The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion, is a lion subspecies that exists as a single isolated population in India's Gujarat State. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN based on the small population size. The lion population has steadily increased in Gir Forest National Park, more than doubling from a low of 180 individuals in 1974 to a level of 411 individuals consisting of 97 adult males, 162 adult females, 75 sub-adults, and 77 cubs as of April 2010. The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus. It is one of the five big cats found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard. It formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sind in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane. The most striking morphological character, which is always seen in Asiatic lions, but rarely in African lions, is a longitudinal fold of skin running along its belly.  The Gir lion is similar in size to the Central African lion, and smaller than large African lions. Adult males weigh 160 to 190 kg (350 to 420 lb).

[Image: Male-Asiatic-lion.jpg]

Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta
Panthera onca augusta, commonly known as the Pleistocene North American jaguar, is an extinct subspecies of the jaguar that was endemic to North and South America during the Pleistocene epoch (1.8 mya—11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 10.2 million years. Fossils have been uncovered from Cueva del Mylodon, Chile, Piaui, Brazil, and north to Adams County, Washington. The jaguar is the largest member of the cat family living today in the western hemisphere. Modern jaguars range in weight from 36 to 158 kg (80 to 350 lbs). During the last Ice Age, the jaguars found in the United States were even larger than this. Some may have weighed up to 190 kg (420 lbs).

[Image: Panthera-onca-augusta.jpg]



(02-13-2019, 05:21 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: Pleistocene Jaguar - Panthera onca augusta vs Asiatic lion i think this thread still in your waiting list


Hopefully that has given you plenty of time to research interesting information on both these species to post in this matchup.

Thanks Taipan

Stronger jaw isn't the same thing with have higher chance.

190 kg lion already has good chance against 158 kg jaguar. But 190v190 jaguar should kill.

Jaguar is the only cat that uses a skull bite instead of a neck bite to kill with so if it gets the first shot has a better shot than most other big cats.

do any body has good knowledge about European jaguar? was it a huge predator, weighing up to 210 kgs?
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#10
The jaguar would win imo, though it's a very close fight. Jaguars are more robust and have a more powerful bite than lions from what I've read (though I'm not sure because different studies show different results). Also, the jaguar can use both forepaws to strike whilst standing on hindlimbs whilst the lion can only strike with 1. Though, the Asiatic lion has the mane to be some defence of the throat and perhaps has more stamina.
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#11
Jaguar wins.

Robuster, higher bite force, skull bite.

Maybe lion a bit larger but jaguar dominates the fight.
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT3njqF11jQ7D2WpTr-l...iTQwMphaum]
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#12
(02-14-2019, 08:59 AM)Mondas Wrote: What is it with posters doing multiple quotes of the thread-header/blurb data? It does get a bit annoying.

Anyhow, the lion's well-honed cat-vs-cat combat skills, duly earned via his social upbringing, will enable the win, here.

I'd note that while a smaller spotted pantherine (the leopard) kept its place in the 'Old World' alongside the
bigger lion & tiger through to recent times, jaguars did not.

(Even if jags were better suited for survival in reduced prey-size circumstances, which happened in the Americas).
Sorry i apologized i was new there so doesn't know the proper way to post in such manner.
Anyways jaguar are bit smaller but superior to all feline living feline at parity.

(03-13-2019, 10:28 PM)Lightning Wrote: The jaguar would win imo, though it's a very close fight. Jaguars are more robust and have a more powerful bite than lions from what I've read (though I'm not sure because different studies show different results). Also, the jaguar can use both forepaws to strike whilst standing on hindlimbs whilst the lion can only strike with 1. Though, the Asiatic lion has the mane to be some defence of the throat and perhaps has more stamina.
Agree with you jaguar are too strong and more robust and higher bite force, imo at parity or at bit weight distance jaguar has eadge.

(03-13-2019, 10:31 PM)Uncia Wrote: Jaguar wins.

Robuster, higher bite force, skull bite.

Maybe lion a bit larger but jaguar dominates the fight.

30 kg heavier doesn't much for more robust and skull breaker cat.
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#13
Also note that the extant (sadly reduced*) lions of Gir in India are not fully representative of Asiatic lions at their best.
In the past, as can be seen in the historical records, Asiatic lions were just as formidable as their sub-Saharan cousins.

As for the old trope about "...lion can only strike with one" forepaw, its nonsense,  see here below:

(& scroll across to ~1:04 in, for action sequence) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ite9n38wvG4
 

A prime male Asiatic lion in territorial dominance mode would back himself against any other male cat he encountered,
whether tawny, spotted, or stripey coated.

*Reduced in overall size due to lack of prey availability, plus inbreeding issues due to small population/gene-pool.
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#14
A Stone Age Jaguar would beat a Indian lion with ease , but a African lion would definitely beat a Stone Age jaguar
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#15
(03-14-2019, 08:06 AM)Mondas Wrote: A prime male Asiatic lion in territorial dominance mode would back himself against any other male cat he encountered,
whether tawny, spotted, or stripey coated.

*Reduced in overall size due to lack of prey availability, plus inbreeding issues due to small population/gene-pool.

dominance against spotted and other agree but against stripey coated tiger in india i dont think so.

(04-02-2019, 09:22 AM)Hippo fan 2003 Wrote: A Stone Age Jaguar would beat a Indian lion with ease  , but a African lion would definitely beat a Stone Age jaguar

african lion that much larger with size and weight, but if had a chance at parity or slightly larger wont stand against jaguar. Jaguar is the most robust feline today upto the size, pound to pound dominant against all feline.
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