Poll: Size of wild canine needed to defeat a 100 lb male Leopard
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125 lb Male Grey Wolf
12.00%
3 12.00%
150 lb Male Grey Wolf
28.00%
7 28.00%
150 lb Male Dire Wolf
4.00%
1 4.00%
175 lb Male Dire Wolf
8.00%
2 8.00%
200 lb Male Epicyon Haydeni
4.00%
1 4.00%
300 lb Male Epicyon Haydeni
16.00%
4 16.00%
Its a travesty to suggest any canine could a male Leopard
16.00%
4 16.00%
Don't worry, they're just Leopard fans
12.00%
3 12.00%
Total 25 vote(s) 100%
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Size of wild canine needed to defeat a male Leopard
#61
(07-15-2019, 01:37 AM)Dale Earnfart Wrote: The dog in that story is a dumb pet dog, who cares about it?

Are pet dogs physically significantly weaker than working dogs or only weaker mentally and behaviourally? Because if the latter, the same argument can be applied to cougars. Even a wild cougar would much rather run than fight with a dogo. And 'a cat that wants to fight is not longer a cat' is an irrelevant argument on Carnivora Forum because, here, we just assume both animals absolutely want to fight to the death.

(07-15-2019, 03:34 AM)Black Ice Wrote: He did. Like three times already.

Grazier only said what Argentine hunters told him. But that isn't 'proof', it's 'hearsay'. Not saying I don't believe him for anything (I initially didn't give him much credibility due to what he said about pitbull being fair matches for big cats and wolves twice their size but, after listening to him, he seems to be a pretty smart guy), just pointing it out for what it is.
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#62
Indeed. I would favor a Cheetah over a German Shepherd, but there is almost no realistic scenario imaginable, where a Cheetah would stand its ground and not run away from a working specimen.
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#63
Nah I’m pretty sure he showed a video too.

Also yes pet dogs are inferior in every way. That’s like asking is a sedentary couch potato inferior to an active guy who hits the gym daily. Ridiculous to even question that.
There are many types of people in this world; None of them are as smart as they think they are.
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#64
(07-15-2019, 09:00 AM)Black Ice Wrote: Nah I’m pretty sure he showed a video too.

That he did but all the circumstances he spoke of (the other two dogs not attacking etc.) are hearsay.

(07-15-2019, 09:00 AM)Black Ice Wrote: Also yes pet dogs are inferior in every way. That’s like asking is a sedentary couch potato inferior to an active guy who hits the gym daily. Ridiculous to even question that.

A human can lift weights and do push ups but how does a dog become physically significantly stronger? How it becomes more aggressive and fearless, I can understand, but how does it become physically significantly stronger?
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#65
It does so by the same way humans do. I have met smaller, older dogs than my parents Icelandic Sheepdog who is almost 10 years now (this was a year or 2 ago) who were a lot stronger and energetic than him, simply because they were in that much better shape.
Most dogs are lucky to get out just 2 or 3 times a day. Imagine sitting in your house, and only go for 2-3 walks a day as exercise, in comparison to someone who runs in his free time, hits the gym and might even do some fight training (in this case, bite work or being a catch dog hunting). There is going to be a difference. I argue the same for Zoo Specimens. Especially after I read an account I can no longer find, where a smaller rewilded Tiger, killed a larger Zoo Tiger that broke into its cage.

EDIT: Working stock also tends to be better mentally wise and genetic wise.
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#66
(07-15-2019, 09:02 AM)Lightning Wrote: A human can lift weights and do push ups but how does a dog become physically significantly stronger? How it becomes more aggressive and fearless, I can understand, but how does it become physically significantly stronger?
Working catch dogs are athletes regularly running and grappling with large dangerous animals. It is like lifting weights, for their jaw and neck muscles biting and holding and securing the thrashing large animal, and their bodies pushing and pulling it around. It is also like martial arts. Like a collegiate wrestler, might lift weights, but constant wrestling is also lifting weights and actually way more beneficial to exercising and strengthening the precise muscles that help the wrestler win wrestles.

Then yes of course it makes them confident and technical and skillful at wrestling. The collegiate wrestler doesn't just beat the guy who plays WOW and eats chips because he hits the gym, the WOW guy as an atrophied body and also no idea how to handle himself in a combative engagement. A pet dog is like the wow guy, or a chess club guy or hey, maybe even a guy who goes jogging, or a guy who plays pick up games of basketball at the park. There's some variation. However the working catch dog is like a collegiate wrestler or pro rugby player, they have strong finely tuned elite bodies geared towards combative grappling competition, and the skills and techniques that come from repeatedly engaging in combative grappling competition.

Their breed dictates whether they were born "naturally gifted" for whatever task. So a gripping dog breed has a broad mouth and is naturally somewhat dense and sturdy even if it's a couch potato, but it won't really know what it's doing or be nearly as fit or strong as it could be and should be if it was living the lifestyle that shaped it's evolution.
A working gripping dog is an elite grappling machine, it's physically suited to the task, match fit and mentally ready and knowledgeable about how to handle itself gripping and subduing dangerous unwilling angry beasts.

Honestly even if it's never seen a cougar, if it's an experienced pro at gripping boars that would do for me. Or if it was an unfortunate fighting dog that has only fought other dogs. As long as its spent it's life drilling gripping combat repetitively it has no excuse not to perform on a wild cat.

But we need to be careful, some "working hunting dogs" aren't gripping dogs. They may be tracking and/or baying dogs and they would be irrelevant, they specifically don't engage, are non combative, so shouldn't be expected to perform in combat. They're actually bred to be cowardly and scared of combat to hold back from it and avoid it so even a couch potato might be better than them.

A gripping dog is unmistakable, like in the video I posted, it just goes straight for its target with unwavering confidence and takes control of it. If you see a dog circling around a wild animal barking it's not a gripping dog.
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#67
^ & if such a "gripping dog" attempted such a solo frontal assault on a leopard adept at habitually making its living
by preying on dogs, then it would be duly intercepted, controlled & killed, per regular routine.

After all, its a plainly predictable natural outcome, as can be seen on so many vids.
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#68
I’m more surprised that question even had to be asked. You think animals just keep a set standard of physical fitness no matter what they do?

Mind blowing that had to be explained.
There are many types of people in this world; None of them are as smart as they think they are.
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#69
(07-15-2019, 11:28 AM)Black Ice Wrote: I’m more surprised that question even had to be asked. You think animals just keep a set standard of physical fitness no matter what they do?

Mind blowing that had to be explained.
Yeah kind of handed me an open court layup with that one, and I decided to needlessly dribble around and do weird Harlem globe trotter theatrics before putting it in.
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#70
I don’t know how we didn’t get along at first my guy. Honestly it’s like we’re brand new people lmao.
There are many types of people in this world; None of them are as smart as they think they are.
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#71
Well I honestly can't remember but if you're a wolf guy we might have butted heads on that.
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#72
(07-15-2019, 02:46 PM)Black Ice Wrote: I don’t know how we didn’t get along at first my guy. Honestly it’s like we’re brand new people lmao.

(07-15-2019, 03:16 PM)Dale Earnfart Wrote: Well I honestly can't remember but if you're a wolf guy we might have butted heads on that.

I'm gonna request Mackenzie Valley wolf vs kangal soon
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#73
^ Have you seen the TV show, 'Zoltan the Wolfman' yet, Lightning?

Its worth checking out, Zoltan is an animal expert/trainer who introduces his trained wolves to Turkish rural people,
& their kangals, & politely puts them straight on both their anti-wolf ideas, & their fanciful notions re wolf/kangal...
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#74
Ahahahaha! Grazier butted heads with Black Ice, Vita and Ursus/Gaursus in the old Kangal vs Grey Wolf thread on the old board. Was fun.
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#75
(07-15-2019, 06:16 PM)Lightning Wrote: I'm gonna request Mackenzie Valley wolf vs kangal soon

I'll bump it! Grey Wolf v Kangal
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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