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Lynxes killing wolves: documented cases:Interference competition
#16
(05-12-2019, 01:40 AM)K9Boy Wrote: remember his findings are specific to that area (belarus) where it seems the lynx can get quite large (vadim noted he had collared a 32kg lynx with an empty stomach). i find nothing sceptical about the pups and pregnant females being killed by male lynx. the fight between the mangy wolf and the lynx with the wolf apparently dying afterwards is speculation though. i dont find it unlikely that the already unwell wolf died of infection shortly after the skirmish


he also has incidents logged on his site about wolves running lynx up trees and stealing their kills, and he also states that lynx's are at risk when they enter a wolf den, stating that the mother/father wolf could kill them.

Event then, these findings would still be incredibly aberrant.
The relatively uniform trend of interspecific mortality is larger species killing smaller species albeit with smaller social species being able to cooperatively kill larger species :
Age,size,and patterns of grouping playa significant role in the outcome of interactions between mammalian carnivores. Smaller species may kill cubs, young or subadult individuals of the larger species (fig.1A;four of seven instances; see the appendix) ,but in general, larger species usually kill both adult and juvenile individuals of the smaller species (fig.1B;24 of 26 instances;see the appendix). One of the two exceptions to the latter finding was two records of wolves killing adult black bears Ursu samericanus (Rogers and Mech 1981;Paquet and Carbyn 1986).In both instances, the wolves were in packs(see later discussion).
Interspecific Killing among Mammalian Carnivores, Palomares and Caro 1999

"Most interestingly, we found that even though interactions are frequent when food overlap is high, as body sizes of competitors become more similar, the frequency and intensity of killing interactions decreases, whereas the potential for food competition remains constant or increases. This counterintuitive finding is explained by the influence of relative body sizes of potential competitors on the outcome of interspecific killing. When the opponents have very similar body sizes, launching an attack carries high risks, and fighting tends to be avoided even if the potential benefits (i.e., freeing an important amount of resource) are large."
Diet, Morphology and Interspecific Killing in Carnivora, Donadio and Buskirk 2006

For a solitary, smaller species to deliberately put itself at risk to attack a larger, social species would be the first recorded incident of its kind. Not to mention it would directly contrast with other, uniform interactions between carnivora. Other studies on wolf - lynx interactions on a spatial level have found that prey differences between the two and likely differences in both behaviour and microhabitat use facilitate high spatial overlap but with minimal competition :
"In BPF, red deer and roe deer areessential prey species of wolves and lynx. Lynx highly prefers roe deer, taking them more often than expected from their share in the ungulate community (Okarmaet al.1997). Red deer, on the other hand, were taken more often than expected from their abundance bywolves (Je ̨drzejewski et al.2000).
...
Thus, it seems that the possibilityfor exploitive competition between wolves and lynx islow and would be very likely only in case of a severe alteration of red and roe deer proportions in the livingungulate community (e.g., due to hunting harvest).
...
Yet another way of avoiding competition involves differences in hunting behavior between wolves and lynx. As a solitary predator, the lynx is able to conceal itself as well as its prey, making it less detectable forwolves, as suggested by Stander et al. (1997) for African leopards (Panthera pardus). Lynx usually drag their kill into thick vegetation and cover it with available material(leaves, snow, etc.) (Je ̨drzejewski et al.1993). In BPF, wolves have rarely been recorded scavenging at kills made by lynx (Je ̨drzejewski et al.1993; Selva et al.2005).Lynx were also never found feeding on kills made by wolves (Selva et al.2005).
...
Although the Białowieza Forest is char-acterized by lack of topographic heterogeneity that would ensure escape avenues, it offers a heterogeneous habitat,which may facilitate the coexistence of these two largecarnivores. The lynx were found to select specific habitatfeatures (fallen logs, uprooted trees, and dense thickets)when hunting and resting (Podgo ́rski et al.2008). In astudy on sympatric wolves and cougars, Husseman et al.(2003) showed that the two carnivores used the habitat in different ways when hunting. Ambushing cougars focusedon small patches facilitating stalking, whereas coursingwolves pursued their prey irrespective of specific habitat type. Wolves, in contrast to lynx, were also occasionallyfound outside of the forest during this study. Therefore,wolves may do well in less diverse habitat, while lynx mayneed a heterogeneous environment to escape competition with a stronger predator.In conclusion, differences in morphology, diet, habitat use, and hunting behavior all contribute to allowingthe grey wolf and Eurasian lynx to coexist where localhabitat and available prey resources fulfill both predators’ requirements."
Spatial interactions between grey wolves and Eurasian lynxin Białowieza Primeval Forest, Poland, Schmidt et al., 2009

Dietary differences often facilitate the coexistence of carnivore species (Karanth and Sunquist 2000). The coexistence of lynx and wolves in Sweden thus might befacilitated by the high densities of roe deer, the main prey of lynx (Odden et al. 2008; Nilsen et al. 2009), and by the broader prey spectrum of wolves. Throughout the majority of our study area, the main prey of wolves in terms of number and biomass was moose, while roe deer was only a secondary prey of little importance for the wolves (Sand et al.2005, 2008). We found no evidence of extensive wolf scavenging on lynx-killed roe deer, a pattern similar to the wolf–lynx system in Białowiez ̇a, Poland (Selva et al. 2005).
Competition between recolonizing wolves and resident lynx in Sweden, Wikenros et al., 2010

It should also be noted in the latter study both animals lived at low densities too.

It is also behaviourally aberrant. There are numerous papers on lynx diet from areas where they're sympatric with wolves, and not a single wolf hair has ever been found in lynx scat. Similarly the pregnant wolves were supposedly clawed to death too, which is unrecorded as a means of lynx to kill large prey (as well as a difficult, slow and exhaustive method of predation that seems unlikely).
Wolves fleeing from lynx on sight is also in contrast with other findings. The only record of an adult wolf killed by a black bear is a mother who refused to abandon her pups from the bear. Similarly small numbers of wolves will mount aggressive defensives to bears that come near their dens. For wolves to flee at the sight of a smaller predator seems unlikely. As is the notion wolves fear the very scentmarks left by lynx, which also borders on heavy anthropomorphisation.
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#17
(05-16-2019, 04:31 AM)Canidae Wrote:
(05-12-2019, 01:40 AM)K9Boy Wrote: remember his findings are specific to that area (belarus) where it seems the lynx can get quite large (vadim noted he had collared a 32kg lynx with an empty stomach). i find nothing sceptical about the pups and pregnant females being killed by male lynx. the fight between the mangy wolf and the lynx with the wolf apparently dying afterwards is speculation though. i dont find it unlikely that the already unwell wolf died of infection shortly after the skirmish


he also has incidents logged on his site about wolves running lynx up trees and stealing their kills, and he also states that lynx's are at risk when they enter a wolf den, stating that the mother/father wolf could kill them.

Event then, these findings would still be incredibly aberrant.
The relatively uniform trend of interspecific mortality is larger species killing smaller species albeit with smaller social species being able to cooperatively kill larger species :
Age,size,and patterns of grouping playa significant role in the outcome of interactions between mammalian carnivores. Smaller species may kill cubs, young or subadult individuals of the larger species (fig.1A;four of seven instances; see the appendix) ,but in general, larger species usually kill both adult and juvenile individuals of the smaller species (fig.1B;24 of 26 instances;see the appendix). One of the two exceptions to the latter finding was two records of wolves killing adult black bears Ursu samericanus (Rogers and Mech 1981;Paquet and Carbyn 1986).In both instances, the wolves were in packs(see later discussion).
Interspecific Killing among Mammalian Carnivores, Palomares and Caro 1999

"Most interestingly, we found that even though interactions are frequent when food overlap is high, as body sizes of competitors become more similar, the frequency and intensity of killing interactions decreases, whereas the potential for food competition remains constant or increases. This counterintuitive finding is explained by the influence of relative body sizes of potential competitors on the outcome of interspecific killing. When the opponents have very similar body sizes, launching an attack carries high risks, and fighting tends to be avoided even if the potential benefits (i.e., freeing an important amount of resource) are large."
Diet, Morphology and Interspecific Killing in Carnivora, Donadio and Buskirk 2006

For a solitary, smaller species to deliberately put itself at risk to attack a larger, social species would be the first recorded incident of its kind. Not to mention it would directly contrast with other, uniform interactions between carnivora. Other studies on wolf - lynx interactions on a spatial level have found that prey differences between the two and likely differences in both behaviour and microhabitat use facilitate high spatial overlap but with minimal competition :
"In BPF, red deer and roe deer areessential prey species of wolves and lynx. Lynx highly prefers roe deer, taking them more often than expected from their share in the ungulate community (Okarmaet al.1997). Red deer, on the other hand, were taken more often than expected from their abundance bywolves (Je ̨drzejewski et al.2000).
...
Thus, it seems that the possibilityfor exploitive competition between wolves and lynx islow and would be very likely only in case of a severe alteration of red and roe deer proportions in the livingungulate community (e.g., due to hunting harvest).
...
Yet another way of avoiding competition involves differences in hunting behavior between wolves and lynx. As a solitary predator, the lynx is able to conceal itself as well as its prey, making it less detectable forwolves, as suggested by Stander et al. (1997) for African leopards (Panthera pardus). Lynx usually drag their kill into thick vegetation and cover it with available material(leaves, snow, etc.) (Je ̨drzejewski et al.1993). In BPF, wolves have rarely been recorded scavenging at kills made by lynx (Je ̨drzejewski et al.1993; Selva et al.2005).Lynx were also never found feeding on kills made by wolves (Selva et al.2005).
...
Although the Białowieza Forest is char-acterized by lack of topographic heterogeneity that would ensure escape avenues, it offers a heterogeneous habitat,which may facilitate the coexistence of these two largecarnivores. The lynx were found to select specific habitatfeatures (fallen logs, uprooted trees, and dense thickets)when hunting and resting (Podgo ́rski et al.2008). In astudy on sympatric wolves and cougars, Husseman et al.(2003) showed that the two carnivores used the habitat in different ways when hunting. Ambushing cougars focusedon small patches facilitating stalking, whereas coursingwolves pursued their prey irrespective of specific habitat type. Wolves, in contrast to lynx, were also occasionallyfound outside of the forest during this study. Therefore,wolves may do well in less diverse habitat, while lynx mayneed a heterogeneous environment to escape competition with a stronger predator.In conclusion, differences in morphology, diet, habitat use, and hunting behavior all contribute to allowingthe grey wolf and Eurasian lynx to coexist where localhabitat and available prey resources fulfill both predators’ requirements."
Spatial interactions between grey wolves and Eurasian lynxin Białowieza Primeval Forest, Poland, Schmidt et al., 2009

Dietary differences often facilitate the coexistence of carnivore species (Karanth and Sunquist 2000). The coexistence of lynx and wolves in Sweden thus might befacilitated by the high densities of roe deer, the main prey of lynx (Odden et al. 2008; Nilsen et al. 2009), and by the broader prey spectrum of wolves. Throughout the majority of our study area, the main prey of wolves in terms of number and biomass was moose, while roe deer was only a secondary prey of little importance for the wolves (Sand et al.2005, 2008). We found no evidence of extensive wolf scavenging on lynx-killed roe deer, a pattern similar to the wolf–lynx system in Białowiez ̇a, Poland (Selva et al. 2005).
Competition between recolonizing wolves and resident lynx in Sweden, Wikenros et al., 2010

It should also be noted in the latter study both animals lived at low densities too.

It is also behaviourally aberrant. There are numerous papers on lynx diet from areas where they're sympatric with wolves, and not a single wolf hair has ever been found in lynx scat. Similarly the pregnant wolves were supposedly clawed to death too, which is unrecorded as a means of lynx to kill large prey (as well as a difficult, slow and exhaustive method of predation that seems unlikely).
Wolves fleeing from lynx on sight is also in contrast with other findings. The only record of an adult wolf killed by a black bear is a mother who refused to abandon her pups from the bear. Similarly small numbers of wolves will mount aggressive defensives to bears that come near their dens. For wolves to flee at the sight of a smaller predator seems unlikely. As is the notion wolves fear the very scentmarks left by lynx, which also borders on heavy anthropomorphisation.
you are just defending the wolves due to the killer is feline..  Smile these are rare cases same like fisher vs canadian lynx, why dont you support canadian lynx? because i proved a lot of scientific study where no evidence of any predation by fishers are found. but you are the guy support your claim behalf of single articles with bundles of errors in study.
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#18
I am quite aware wolves can be killed by sympatric felines like cougars and leopards.
This is not akin to fisher / lynx predation. There were multiple instances of that occurring before the publication, and all of it was verified, peer reviewed evidence with the full methodology reported. This has not undergone the same processes and the blogger does not want it to either.

Please do point out the errors in the studies I used though.
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#19
(05-16-2019, 05:02 AM)Canidae Wrote: I am quite aware wolves can be killed by sympatric felines like cougars and leopards.
This is not akin to fisher / lynx predation. There were multiple instances of that occurring before the publication, and all of it was verified, peer reviewed evidence with the full methodology reported. This has not undergone the same processes and the blogger does not want it to either.

Please do point out the errors in the studies I used though.
Prove the any scientific study with evidence of predation of lynx by fishers execpt this bogus. I know you will never convince neither i.. But alas to say you hate felines because they are stronger, powerful, superior to your any canid and you knw it.
I proved a lot of scientific study about predation of fishers by bobcats but you wouldnt argue about it because they are felines? Dude come on go and check more accounts where felines being killed by any incident, but i am pretty sure your canid will loose in every way at parity.
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#20
(05-16-2019, 06:16 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 05:02 AM)Canidae Wrote: I am quite aware wolves can be killed by sympatric felines like cougars and leopards.
This is not akin to fisher / lynx predation. There were multiple instances of that occurring before the publication, and all of it was verified, peer reviewed evidence with the full methodology reported. This has not undergone the same processes and the blogger does not want it to either.

Please do point out the errors in the studies I used though.
Prove the any scientific study with evidence of predation of lynx by fishers execpt this bogus. I know you will never convince neither i.. But alas to say you hate felines because they are stronger, powerful, superior to your any canid and you knw it.
I proved a lot of scientific study about predation of fishers by bobcats but you wouldnt argue about it because they are felines? Dude come on go and check more accounts where felines being killed by any incident, but i am pretty sure your canid will loose in every way at parity.

If you have reason to suggest why the verified study on lynx predation was bogus, please do share it in the relevant thread. I do not dispute bobcats killing fishers as there is verified, peer reviewed evidence of it and it is entirely in line with other publications on interspecific predation.
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#21
(05-16-2019, 06:25 AM)Canidae Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 06:16 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(05-16-2019, 05:02 AM)Canidae Wrote: I am quite aware wolves can be killed by sympatric felines like cougars and leopards.
This is not akin to fisher / lynx predation. There were multiple instances of that occurring before the publication, and all of it was verified, peer reviewed evidence with the full methodology reported. This has not undergone the same processes and the blogger does not want it to either.

Please do point out the errors in the studies I used though.
Prove the any scientific study with evidence of predation of lynx by fishers execpt this bogus. I know you will never convince neither i.. But alas to say you hate felines because they are stronger, powerful, superior to your any canid and you knw it.
I proved a lot of scientific study about predation of fishers by bobcats but you wouldnt argue about it because they are felines? Dude come on go and check more accounts where felines being killed by any incident, but i am pretty sure your canid will loose in every way at parity.

If you have reason to suggest why the verified study on lynx predation was bogus, please do share it in the relevant thread. I do not dispute bobcats killing fishers as there is verified, peer reviewed evidence of it and it is entirely in line with other publications on interspecific predation.

i already shared there go and check..
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