Poll: Who wins?
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Asiatic Lion
50.00%
4 50.00%
European Scimitar
50.00%
4 50.00%
Total 8 vote(s) 100%
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Asiatic Lion v European Scimitar
#1
Asiatic Lion - Panthera leo persica
The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion, is a lion subspecies that exists as a single isolated population in India's Gujarat State. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN based on the small population size. The lion population has steadily increased in Gir Forest National Park, more than doubling from a low of 180 individuals in 1974 to a level of 411 individuals consisting of 97 adult males, 162 adult females, 75 sub-adults, and 77 cubs as of April 2010. The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus. It is one of the five big cats found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard. It formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sind in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane. The most striking morphological character, which is always seen in Asiatic lions, but rarely in African lions, is a longitudinal fold of skin running along its belly. The Gir lion is similar in size to the Central African lion, and smaller than large African lions. Adult males weigh 160 to 190 kg (350 to 420 lb).

[Image: 480px-Asiatic_Male_Lion_in_Gir_Forest_National_Park.jpg]

European Scimitar - Homotherium latidens
Homotherium is an extinct genus of machairodontine saber-toothed cats, often termed scimitar cats, endemic to North America, South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa during the Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs (5 mya–10 000 years ago), existing for approximately 5 million years. Homotherium reached 1.1 m at the shoulder and was therefore about the size of a lion, weighing an estimated 190 kg. Compared to some other machairodonts, like Smilodon or Megantereon, Homotherium had relatively shorter upper canines, but they were flat, serrated and longer than those of any living cat. Incisors and lower canines formed a powerful puncturing and gripping device. Among living cats, only the tiger (Panthera tigris) has such large incisors, which aid in lifting and carrying prey. The molars of Homotherium were rather weak and not adapted for bone crushing. The skull was longer than in Smilodon and had a well-developed crest, where muscles were attached to power the lower jaw. This jaw had down-turned forward flanges to protect the scimitars. Its large canine teeth were crenulated and designed for slashing rather than purely stabbing. It had the general appearance of a cat, but some of its physical characteristics are rather unusual for a large cat. The limb proportions of Homotherium gave it a hyena-like appearance. The forelegs were elongated, while the hind quarters were rather squat with feet perhaps partially plantigrade, causing the back to slope towards the short tail. Features of the hindlimbs indicate that this cat was moderately capable of leaping. The pelvic region, including the sacral vertebrae, were bear-like, as was the short tail composed of 13 vertebrae—about half the number in long-tailed cats.

[Image: 4e93d5ba7a3a02524091e659882a139a.jpg]



(04-15-2019, 08:00 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote: Homotherium latidens vs african or asian lion
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#2
H. latidens is roughly equal to or slightly less robust overall than an African lion, so it would be about equal to the comparatively gracile Asiatic lion. The sloped back is noted to have provided stability when dealing with prey, this being something that would be carried over to fighting competitors. It is still just as flexible as any given cat and would very easily still be able to grapple. It was possibly slower and less agile but it likely has more stamina than other cats, but not to the extent of a true hyena or canid, most likely. It would do just fine against either version of the lion.

And before anyone mentions "oh lions r here and they aren't", keep in mind H. latidens was the size of a lion and competed directly with P. spelea, which itself was even larger than a modern lion and they still managed to survive, until genus Homo showed up.
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#3
Remember, Leo.persica is only very lately regarded as 'gracile', & that is wholly due to baleful human interference.
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#4
The cause doesn't matter. It is what it is, and it is more gracile than its African sibling.
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#5
Not necessarily, since it aint extinct, & we could include 'Barbary lion' genes, too - if we wanted to 'grow our own'.
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#6
If it was more robust in the past, then it was more robust in the past. Since it's a modern population, that's the only thing that matters. And how on earth do you plan to introduce Barbary lion genes into Asiatic lion genomes and grow them up soon enough to actually take place in this hypothetical matchup based off of a modern population versus an extinct animal?
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#7
Some info regarding Homotherium & Pleistocene Lion:

Quote:Homotherium latidens & Cave Lions:

The common large felid from the late Pleistocene of Europe is the cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea), which is supposed to have preyed upon nearly all of the available larger mammals in its vicinity, such as horse, deer, bison, aurochs, yak, musk ox, sheep, goat, saiga antelope, juvenile mammoth, and juvenile rhinoceros (Kahlke, 1999). Homotherium was of almost the same size as the cave lion, and it is supposed to have fed upon juvenile Mammuthus primigenius and other such large prey (Hooijer, 1962; Turner and Anto´n, 1997). The recovery of only a single dentary in the North Sea is obviously not enough to make suppositions about the geographical range of Homotherium in Europe during the late Pleistocene. Further investigations will be needed to determine if specimens of H. latidens can be found in existing collections of late Pleistocene postcranial fossils now attributed to P. leo spelaea. In this respect, it is finally worth stressing that the now established occurrence of this large predator as an element of the late Pleistocene large carnivore guild opens a new perspective, and necessitates a re-evaluation of the competitive relationship between large carnivorans and Homo in the late Pleistocene of Europe.
Evidence of cursorial adaptations in Homotherium suggests a hunting technique different from modern cats or smilodontine sabre-tooths. Some, like reduction of the claws, would have limited the ability of individual homotheres to bring down large prey, implying group action. Homotherium would also have been disadvantaged in direct confrontation with Pleistocene lions by smaller body mass, reduced forepaw muscle strength, smaller claws and more fragile dentition. Its hunting technique would have worked best in more open habitats, but competition from lions would have forced it to seek moderate cover. 

(Exerpts from)
LATE PLEISTOCENE SURVIVAL OF THE SABER-TOOTHED CAT HOMOTHERIUM IN
NORTHWESTERN EUROPE

Co-existence of scimitar-toothed cats, lions and hominins in the European Pleistocene. Implications of the post-cranial anatomy of Homotherium latidens (Owen) for comparative palaeoecology 
[Image: wildcat10-CougarHuntingDeer.jpg]
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#8
Homotherium had relatively shorter upper canines, but they were flat, serrated and longer than those of any living cat. Incisors and lower canines formed a powerful puncturing and gripping device. Among living cats, only the tiger has such large incisors, which aid in lifting and carrying prey. The molars of Homotherium were rather weak and not adapted for bone crushing. The skull was longer than in Smilodon and had a well-developed crest, where muscles were attached to power the lower jaw. This jaw had down-turned forward flanges to protect the scimitars. Its large canine teeth were crenulated and designed for slashing rather than purely stabbing.
The only disadvantage i ve seen the limb proportions of Homotherium gave it a hyena-like appearance that may cause difficulty in fighting with Lion but IMO Homotheruim damage a lot more then lion due to his jaw however lion would probably defeat him in grappling but i cant say they can control similar size homotheruim.
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#9
(04-15-2019, 04:38 PM)Sher Khan Wrote: First to comment on this thread Smile

The lion should take this.

Based on the images and the descriptions, the lion seems to be better equipped for combat. The lion seems to be more agile, explosive, and stronger.

The hyena like physique which E. Scimitar has, seems to be a huge disadvantage in combat. Just like hyenas, E. Scimitar is not as agile or explosive. Not to mention that E. Scimatar's forelimbs look rather lean in comparison to the lion - I doubt it would even be able to throw a proper strike.

So, in terms of paw strikes and grappling, the lion is going to do more damage.

The only reason why this may be contestible match up is because of E. Scimatar's jaws. Based on the description, E. Scimatar seems to have more well developed molars and incissors than the lion. So, perhaps, E. Scimatar's jaws might be able to slash and cut through flesh better?

But, honestly, I don't think that is enough to counter the lion's advantages. I don't think having better developed incisors can counter for the lion having stronger forequarters, larger canine teeth, being faster, more explosive, and more agile.
SK i agree lion has better grappling ability,but how do lion manage his grappling ability against the similar size homo with powerful jaws, can do more damage then lion? in that case i would go for 50/50 rather then give edge to lion.

just suppose in this video if its scimitar vs lion, who will damage a lot?





(04-15-2019, 04:53 PM)zergthe Wrote: H. latidens is roughly equal to or slightly less robust overall than an African lion, so it would be about equal to the comparatively gracile Asiatic lion. The sloped back is noted to have provided stability when dealing with prey, this being something that would be carried over to fighting competitors. It is still just as flexible as any given cat and would very easily still be able to grapple. It was possibly slower and less agile but it likely has more stamina than other cats, but not to the extent of a true hyena or canid, most likely. It would do just fine against either version of the lion.

And before anyone mentions "oh lions r here and they aren't", keep in mind H. latidens was the size of a lion and competed directly with P. spelea, which itself was even larger than a modern lion and they still managed to survive, until genus Homo showed up.

i feel the same..
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#10
Of relative importance:
Taipan Wrote:
reddhole Wrote:The scimiar cat or homotherius was a very interesting cat. It was far less robust than smilodon, but how it compares with extant big cats is the more important question. Most analyses conclude that homotherium was moderately cursorial and therefore less robust than extant big cats.

Basically, homotherium had less robust forelimbs (including related muscles - shoulders, chest , etc.) and smaller claws than extant big cats. However, homotherium had a shorter and more robust lower back. In addition, homotherium had rear limbs that were better able to withstand stresses in a violent struggle (i.e. grappling prey or an opponent in a fight). Finally, homotherium had enlarged incisors (teeth between canines), which may have helped restrain prey and compensate for less forelimb grappling ability.

However, these analyses compared the somewhat less robust european scimitar cat, homotherium latidens, instead of the american species, homotherium serum, with extant big cats.  

Interestingly,Wroe's "How to Build a Mammalian Superpredator" study placed the american scimitar cat, homotherium serum, closer to smilodon (i.e. better grappler/super predator) than modern lions:

[Image: buildingmamalliansuperp.png]

Some specific morphological data from this study also show homotherium performing well:

[Image: HowtoBuildSuperPredatorChart001.jpg]

1) rt/re - mechanical advantage of the bicep - important for pulling in a fight. Higher values mean stronger bicepts and pulling power:

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.076

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): .074

Lion: 0.067

Black Bear: 0.070

ri/hi: radius/humerus - measure of forearm mechanical advantage - smaller ratio means stronger forearms all else being equal:

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.278 (log). Actual ratio: 0.90

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.281 (log). Actual ratio: 0.91

Lion: 0.299 (log). Actual ratio: 0.99

Black Bear: 0.274: Actual ratio: 0.88

Note: the lion's value is on the high end of the range I've seen for lion. In the study posted in Ursus's post, lions had a lower radius/humerus ratio than Homotherium serum.

Mc3/HI: Metacarpal length/humerus. Higher values equal more cursorial.


Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.129

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.133

Lion: 0.136

Black Bear: 0.084

Ti/FI: Tibia/femur - higher values equal more cursorial and less stability of the rear limbs all else being equal.

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.275

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.265

Lion: 0.264

Black Bear: 0.249


FI/Mt3: femur length/metatarsal length -  smaller values equal more cursorial.

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.597

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.606

Lion: 0.518

Black Bear: 0.699

Lv/tv: this indicates the relative size of the lower back. A shorter back and smaller ratio equals a stronger and more stable lower back all else being equal.

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): .100

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.103

Lion: 0.117

Black Bear: 0.100

Robusticity Index: This measures how much weight is in the trunk of an animal and gives a broad indication of overall strength.

Homotherium latidens (european scimitar cat): 0.248

Homotherium serum (american scimitar cat): 0.298

Lion: 0.299

Black Bear: 0.277

In conclusion, the safe bet and generally accepted theory is that homotherium was weaker than extant big cats (body mass is around 200 KG - similar to a lion), but an argument can be made that the scimitar cat (at least the american species) was as formidable or more formidable based on

 1) Its stronger lower back and rear limbs and enlarged incisors. All of which could potentially compensate for more slender forelimbs.

 2) Stronger biceps and potentially pulling power.

3) Similar overall robusticity to lions based on trunk mass

I favor the american scimitar cat over a black bear because of the following:

1) Large black bears (i.e. 400 + lb. animals) tend to be relatively fat. At least that is the case here in the Northeastern US - a lot of the heavy bears are garbage feeders.

2) Black bears have weak bites and small canines for their size.

3) Scimitar cat can easily kill the bear if it can get the bear to the ground with its deadly bite.

4) Scimitar likely had better overall stamina than extant big cats due to its presumed more cursorial habits.[/size]
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#11
Taipan's post included certain salient points.

Do also note that O-F 786's vid shows related male lions 'sparring', as a 'trial of strength' contest, & not a killing.

By contrast check the gifs recently posted by ApexBoy on the jaguar vs 'ceratops thread, which show how
businesslike lions really are when putting in a killing bite.

Of course, lions adapt their approach to particular opponents, & know full-well that a powerful male lion is
in a much more formidable category in a 'fight' than a leopard, hyena, or even a lioness.

This is why, if you watch the extremely violent killing-intent battles between rival lion prides, they specifically,
& brutally target zones which will do terminal damage, which is not the case in 'sparring' between brothers,
male cousins/coalition mates, or even in 'beat downs' of other pride members, as a lion social dominance routine.

Given the vicious persecution that lion prides, led by the dominant prime male 'boss', mete out to other predators,
its unlikely that H.latidens would be treated any differently, as Taipan pointed out.
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#12
(04-16-2019, 04:58 AM)Sher Khan Wrote: @onlyfaizy786,

What makes you think that E. Scimitar would do more damage than P. Leo in grappling ability? Are you suggesting that E. Scimitar has a stronger bite than P. Leo? If that is the case, than do you have any data to support that claim?

Thanks for sharing that video - it goes to show how well lions can grapple. Not to mention that lions seem to be the best jaw grapplers among all the big cats.

In that video, if it was one lion and one E. Scimitar, the lion, undoubtly, would do more
@SK i am telling their bite force are more then Lion i said their teeth are far larger then lion thats why i suppose that they can do more damage.
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#13
Misunderstanding of incisor arrangement in sabre-cats.
Its due to those massively oversized canines.

Lions ( & all regular conical-tooth cats) can use their canines for multipurpose roles, from killing/butchering,
through to self-grooming & even cub-care ( though they will use their other teeth too, of course).

S-T cats required a projecting incisor arrangement, due to their canines being so impractical for general purposes.
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#14
(04-17-2019, 03:09 AM)Sher Khan Wrote: @onlyfaizy786,
Wait, so you are saying that E. Scimitar would do more damage because it has larger teeth?

Well, since E. Scimitar has more well developed carnnassials, I agree it will be able to tear through flesh better than the lion, but the lion's canine teeth are larger, stronger, and more well developed - so I think the lion would be able to penetrate through flesh and strike a vital area, like, say, and artery better.

@ SK 
May be you are right! but still not a easy win at both side as you though lion can grapple the similar size Scimitar, i do agree hyena shape body is the disadvantage but honestly canines seem terribly large.. One strong bite make massive flesh tear out and a lot of bleed will flow.
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#15
^ Not if those scimitar teeth are stuck in a choking mass of mane hair, which is even longer than those teeth.
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