Poll: Who wins?
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Asiatic Lion
66.67%
4 66.67%
European Scimitar
33.33%
2 33.33%
Total 6 vote(s) 100%
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Asiatic Lion v European Scimitar
#91
(04-19-2019, 10:12 AM)Mondas Wrote:
(04-19-2019, 07:57 AM)onlyfaizy786 Wrote:
(04-19-2019, 03:44 AM)Mondas Wrote: ^ A pair of fat, lazy slugs... in comparison to how hard lions go at it!

Whats wrong with you? Mondas ? Lion is just a peice of manure for me !! But i do respect and change my mind that you like him much so blindly we dont have issue atleast dont comments like non sense...

Look dude, if:

"Lion is just a piece of manure for me!!"  & tigers are so similar, as fellow pantherines, that's just "nonsense".

That vid of those two corpulent tigers rolling around hugging each other, then taking time out to get their wind
back, is an embarrassment for tiger fans, those two were almost as 'puffed out' by their wrestling, as bears get.

There are any number of actual wildlife vids showing rival male lions fighting with much greater energy/intensity.

I have never ever seen someone blinded by so much bias... wow...

 Tigers have a different fighting style, nothing else. They prefer grappling, whereas lions prefer striking (although tigers are better at both).

And the reason they were running out of breath is because male tigers grab each others noses and prevent them from breathing - that is why.

You lion, bear, and croc lovers are so biased an jealous of tigers it is hilarious.

EDIT: Here’s a SUMATRAN tiger easily over-powering, man-handling and flipping over a big male lion:
[Image: main-qimg-1f49f3397464848e89cc4242ef5e1bc8]
That gif also shows the superior ferocity, sheer power and killing instinct the tiger has over the lion.
The fight ended with the tiger having the lion in a DEATH-GRIP. The lion had to be saved in the end by people, who sprayed ammonia on the tiger to make it release its hold:
[Image: main-qimg-5d5644a13c70dd15a9bde8b70072df2e]
I don't like relying on fights from captivity, but I could not help but show this one.

If a 300 lbs sumatran tiger can toss a big male lion around like a rag doll, just imagine what a big male Bengal/Amur tiger could do..
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#92
^ Yes, O-F 786 is blinded by bias, for sure, to write that.

Did you actually watch the vid he posted? If you did, & you thought it was anything but a disgrace, you are too.

& tiger "lovers" are notorious as being the most biased of all the fans of big cats, because of vids like that.

(Its also true that reptile & canid fanciers are even worse, due to their faves being so limited, in reality).
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#93
(04-19-2019, 10:23 AM)Mondas Wrote: ^ Yes, O-F 786 is blinded by bias, for sure, to write that.

Did you actually watch the vid he posted? If you did, & you thought it was anything but a disgrace, you are too.

& tiger "lovers" are notorious as being the most biased of all the fans of big cats, because of vids like that.

(Its also true that reptile & canid fanciers are even worse, due to their faves being so limited, in reality).

Yeah... totally.

Yeah - I did. The fact that you think it is a disgrace just further proves my point about how biased you are towards lions.

That is questionable... yeah, there are crazed tiger fans, but lion fans are no better. Especially since you and other lion fans have called tigers cowards and what not.
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#94
^ No, S-K, you misrepresent me, I'd never label tigers with those terms, I simply noted that these were in the past
ascribed by people who did not understand why tigers do things & their ways in their own habitats.

But as you have noted yourself, one of the differences between tigers & lions is the propensity for tigers to 'act cool'
but 'hold a grudge' quietly, 'til they decide to follow up on their repressed anger, in a very calculated, lethal way.

By contrast, ( & as you stated as 'bluffing'), lions will express their displeasure upfront, on the spot & 'get over it',
this being needful in social 'society', & these contrasts were both noted, & utilized, by circus beastmasters for shows,
plus being a matter to be aware of, by keepers of big cats, such as Tippi Hedren & Dave Salmoni.




Addit:


(04-19-2019, 10:15 AM)Sher Khan Wrote: EDIT: Here’s a SUMATRAN tiger easily over-powering, man-handling and flipping over a big male lion:
[Image: main-qimg-1f49f3397464848e89cc4242ef5e1bc8]
That gif also shows the superior ferocity, sheer power and killing instinct the tiger has over the lion.
The fight ended with the tiger having the lion in a DEATH-GRIP. The lion had to be saved in the end by people, who sprayed ammonia on the tiger to make it release its hold:
[Image: main-qimg-5d5644a13c70dd15a9bde8b70072df2e]
I don't like relying on fights from captivity, but I could not help but show this one.

If a 300 lbs sumatran tiger can toss a big male lion around like a rag doll, just imagine what a big male Bengal/Amur tiger could do..

Ah, no.

What those screenshots actually depict is a Hollywood movie 'stunt scene' set-up from the mid-C20th,
that utilized circus performers, & the tigers did so poorly in combat, that 3 had to be used in all.
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#95
(04-19-2019, 10:23 AM)Mondas Wrote: ^ Yes, O-F 786 is blinded by bias, for sure, to write that.

Did you actually watch the vid he posted? If you did, & you thought it was anything but a disgrace, you are too.

& tiger "lovers" are notorious as being the most biased of all the fans of big cats, because of vids like that.

(Its also true that reptile & canid fanciers are even worse, due to their faves being so limited, in reality).
Dear mondas i think you should learn to respect others opinions dont think i disgrace your favorism toward lion. But dont overrated your choice neither underrated others. You think lion is superior ok fine but what if we dont think like that? Hope you got what i mean it all just because i feel we all are respected.
[Image: t70ok8.jpg]
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#96
(04-19-2019, 10:47 AM)Mondas Wrote: ^ No, S-K, you misrepresent me, I'd never label tigers with those terms, I simply noted that these were in the past
ascribed by people who did not understand why tigers do things & their ways in their own habitats.

But as you have noted yourself, one of the differences between tigers & lions is the propensity for tigers to 'act cool'
but 'hold a grudge' quietly, 'til they decide to follow up on their repressed anger, in a very calculated, lethal way.

By contrast, ( & as you stated as 'bluffing'), lions will express their displeasure upfront, on the spot & 'get over it',
this being needful in social 'society', & these contrasts were both noted, & utilized, by circus beastmasters for shows,
plus being a matter to be aware of, by keepers of big cats, such as Tippi Hedren & Dave Salmoni.

 Addit:


(04-19-2019, 10:15 AM)Sher Khan Wrote: EDIT: Here’s a SUMATRAN tiger easily over-powering, man-handling and flipping over a big male lion:
[Image: main-qimg-1f49f3397464848e89cc4242ef5e1bc8]
That gif also shows the superior ferocity, sheer power and killing instinct the tiger has over the lion.
The fight ended with the tiger having the lion in a DEATH-GRIP. The lion had to be saved in the end by people, who sprayed ammonia on the tiger to make it release its hold:
[Image: main-qimg-5d5644a13c70dd15a9bde8b70072df2e]
I don't like relying on fights from captivity, but I could not help but show this one.

If a 300 lbs sumatran tiger can toss a big male lion around like a rag doll, just imagine what a big male Bengal/Amur tiger could do..

Ah, no.

What those screenshots actually depict is a Hollywood movie 'stunt scene' set-up from the mid-C20th,
that utilized circus performers, & the tigers did so poorly in combat, that 3 had to be used in all.

No - those who called tigers cowards were a bunch of insecure idiots, and like you said, did not understand why tigers did certain things in the wild.

Believe it or not, throughout history, just like lions, tigers have also been seen as a symbol of courage, power, grace, beauty, and strength.

Yeah - you are right. Tigers hold grudges quietly whereas lions like to get over it ASAP.  But by no means does this make them cowardly. If anything, this goes to show how intelligent tigers are. They have the ability to "act cool" but stay angry internally and than execute their revenge like a human - how many animals have the cognitive ability to do this?

Btw, if you have talked to trainers who have actually worked with these animals, you would know that they prefer to work with tigers over lions - the reason being that tigers are more "cooperative" and "easy going". Lions get angry for no reason and are often stubborn - often trying to fight for no reason whatsoever.  I have talked to a trainer who could not even work with her male lion without her mentor because he was very aggressive and angry all the time. 
No - it is the other way around. The tiger had been disadvantaged in the fight already. By no means were three tigers used against one lion.
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#97
^ No, look up the making of that move, from which you took the stills, the trainer explains what was done.

& No, in mixed lion/tiger settings, whether circus performances, or in animal parks or sanctuaries,
the 'top' beast is always the prime lion, just as in nature.

Read Tippi Hedren's excellent memoir, for confirmation if you don't accept the published views of circus beastmasters.

Hedren states that once you get an 'understanding' with a lion, trust will build from there, but in her view, tigers are
different, & can never be allowed to get into a dominant posture with a human, even after years of amicable interaction,
since they may then recall some perceived slight from long back, & exact 'retribution', which may be awful in outcome.



Likely, the "very aggressive & angry" lion you noted did not accept the authority of the female trainer, because
he already had an expectation that he'd only accept being 'bossed' by "her mentor", not his subordinate.
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#98
True - but the reason for that, as I have mentioned numerous times, is because tigers lose their instincts faster and become more docile in captivity. Obviously a docile tiger would submit to a aggressive lion, but pit an aggressive tiger against an aggressive lion, and you will quickly see which animal is more dominant.

A wild male tiger would never submit to a wild male lion. Wild male tigers have been known to chase of bull tusker elephants - a wild tiger is a completely different beast from a captive one.

I have heard of Tippi Hedren. What she said was indeed true. However, you should note, that tigers will forgive small mistakes - and Hedren does mention this, if I recall correctly. It is only when you have done something horribly wrong to a tiger, that they might extract revenge even after years of amicable interaction.

Actually no - if anything, the lion actually liked the trainer more. That trainer raised and nurtured that lion from when he was a newborn cub. She played with him, fed him, groomed him, etc. But she says that once her lion started growing a mane and growing bigger and stronger, he gradually became more arrogant, demanded respect, and in the trainer's own words, enjoyed "bullying her".  The lion would constantly roar at full volume for no reason whatsoever. That is why she named her lion "Tsavo" - because of his attitude.

This trainer does admit, however, that tigers are more prone to getting revenge and getting "even" at a later date. But, as long as she did not do anything to annoy her tigers, they were always happy to see her (especially her male siberian tiger, who she named, "Saigon") whereas her male lion (Tsavo) would act "surly" at times.
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#99
^ Likely, the trainer who "raised & nurtured" the lion - being a female - had some bearing on the matter, compare the
well-documented story of 'Christian the lion' for example, but then individual personalities* come into it too, of course.

& as the famous US circus beastmasters noted, when a hand-raised big cat does not want to do something, it knows
you cannot force any demands on it, & may become dangerous if you do, which is why they always preferred wild-caught
performers, so as to keep the 'deal' on a 'professional level', with the cats never too confident in their powers.

But you are wrong about dominance, as those people who have long experience with both cats will confirm,
the lion is always 'boss', & while many lions are 'game', the boss lion is like 'The Terminator' - he will not stop.

One noted characteristic that puts tigers at another disadvantage in 'mixed company', is that 'personal' attitude,
in the event of a scrap, other tigers will leave their own to his fate, while for lions, its 'one in, all in'.

Indeed, one beastmaster noted that when a particular tiger decided he'd take the opportunity to attack him,
the man was saved by the prompt intervention of the 'boss' lion, who stepped up to give the tiger a beat-down, &
not out of any 'love' for his keeper, but because this was his prerogative, & he'd brook no striped upstart 'trying it on'!


* Whether Shin accepts it, or not.
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I know animals are smarter than we have given them credit for, but do you think a lion or a tiger has the IQ to differentiate between a male and a female human being?

I have heard of "Christian the lion" - that story was amazing. Goes to show that animals can be far more caring and loving than humans. I agree - individual personalities do indeed come into play, but as a general rule, lions, when in company with other animals, will try to establish their dominance and "boss" the other animals around.

Yep - what you mentioned about US circus beastmasters is indeed correct. You can't force a big cat to do anything. So it is always better to get wild caught performers.

Actually no... while lions are very formidable in battle, there are some big cat trainers who will tell you that tigers, when provoked, are also "terminator" like. Even Dave Salmoni, who favors the lion, says that you can "convince" an angry lion to not kill you, but if a tiger decides to kill you or another animal, nothing can stop it. That is why I favor the tiger in a prime male to male battle - tigers are just as formidable when provoked, and along with all the physical and intellectual advantages they possess, it makes it pretty one-sided.

In fact, Samuel Haughton, who has trained both lions and tigers, said the following statement (his EXACT words):

"The lion, is, in truth, a pretenious humbug, who owes his reputation to his imposing mane, and he will run away like a whipped cur, under circumstances, in which the tiger will boldly attack and kill"

Ok... please don't tell me that you are talking about Clyde Beatty. Beatty was a fraud. He was a lion fanatic - hell, he was arrested for animal cruelty! He respected his lions, but treated his tigers like sh*t. That is why his lions liked him more, and were willing to "save him" from "tiger attacks". If he treated his tigers with respect and lions like trash, it would be his tiger "saving him" from "lion attacks"

All the fights where he claims that "lions whip tigers" are usually fully grown male lions going against tigresses or multiple lions ganging up on one tigers.

Yes, of course - Shin and his buddy "Komododo" are living in denial.
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Of course animals in the company of people know them, individually & by sex, inc' maturity level!

Animals such as cats have certain sensory capabilities well in advance of ours, & can detect hormones,
& some kept animals show def' preferences accordingly, some being dismissive towards human females,
with others displaying a higher level of confidence with them & a distrust/dislike of adult males.

Likewise, animals show awareness of matters such as size & movement, some like children & some do not.


But you need to stop 'cherry-picking' ( as Taipan advised) your quotes, since if you collate a 'meta analysis' of
the published views of all big cat keeper/trainers, there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence to
confirm that a prime male lion will be dominant over all others, its simply in their nature to do this, & the
beastmasters going back to ancient times knew this, & utilized it in a 'professional alliance' relationship,
to ensure effective performance, ( & their own safety).

I have already, posted a link where Dave Salmoni confirms he changed his views about the probable outcome
of a combat contest, to favour the 'boss' lion, on the basis of his experiential undertakings with them, & as
for attempting to dismiss Clyde Beatty as a "fraud", who deliberately mistreated tigers due to holding some
manner of bias against them ( even when he had real reason to be mistrustful of them), then you are wrong.

Beatty was a professional beastmaster, & made his living from his troupe of performing pantherines, of which
he'd noted, tigers were by far the most expensive to source, being comparatively rarely seen, & thus valuable
both in financial terms to obtain, as well as being great 'crowd pullers' for being so 'exotic', (just as in the days
of ancient Rome). It is foolish to imagine that he actually "treated his tigers like sh*t", given these factors.
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Sher Khan Wrote:Obviously a docile tiger would submit to a aggressive lion, but pit an aggressive tiger against an aggressive lion, and you will quickly see which animal is more dominant.

A wild male tiger would never submit to a wild male lion. Wild male tigers have been known to chase of bull tusker elephants - a wild tiger is a completely different beast from a captive one

That's ridiculous. These are animals, but some fantasy creature with a uniform mentality across the board. There's variation. They don't have some sense of pride over never surrendering to a supposedly less fearsome animal. The idea that a wild male tiger would never submit to a lion and always be dominant is naive and cartoonish.

Also, how do you suppose this picture demonstrates anything?
[Image: main-qimg-1f49f3397464848e89cc4242ef5e1bc8]
Looks like two fur balls wrestling in a snow globe.
[Image: 1nKsIij.gif]
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